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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hey i was wondering what would be the best torque converter for my car. I probably wont replace it untill i get and put in a rebuilt motor (not sure on the details yet). It is my daily driver so it cant be too radical either. Thanks!
 

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redhot87 said:
hey i was wondering what would be the best torque converter for my car. I probably wont replace it untill i get and put in a rebuilt motor (not sure on the details yet). It is my daily driver so it cant be too radical either. Thanks!
Well you don't want to go crazy with an aod transmission if you are going to daily drive it, they get driveablity issues very easily. At most I would suggest a 10 inch 2800 stall, which is odd for me I usually recommend lots of stall but not on that transmission...delete the direct drive system it sucks.
Alan
 

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i would go with the 12inch 2500-2800 stall for the street,the bigger conv will keep things alot cooler.if you decide to go with the non-lockup you will need to change over to a solid shaft.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
ok thanks alot for the advice!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
dirtyd0g said:
...delete the direct drive system it sucks.
Alan
Im not sure what you mean by this... not really a tranny buff :laughlitt ... can you fill me in? Why does it suck?
 

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The AOD is built differently than most lockup transmissions.

Instead of lockup clutches in the converter, it's got a small
3rd inner input shaft that hooks to a hub inside the converter
and drives the direct drum.

So you end up with nearly full lockup in 3rd which comes
on at the time of the shift, so you go from converter-2nd
to direct/lockup in 3rd.

That also drives lockup in OD.

The stock inner input shaft is weak and breaks fairly
easily. Harder ones are available but they're ~$175.00

Here's some info to some things you can do easily to an
AOD without removing it that will make it live longer
and works fine behind a mostly stock engine.
(Only thing is you have to take the trans out to
put in that stronger inner input shaft.)

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article111.html

Here's info on removing/replacing an AOD
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article48.html
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article91.html

Aftermarket converters from the big names
can be quite expensive - like $300 and WAY up.

I've found this source which will give you a good
durable ~2500 stall lockup for (starting) price
of about $150 for a 12" AOD. (AOD converters are
a little cheaper cuz they don't have lockup clutches.)
They're a reman and beefed oem converter which is
just fine for a fairly stock motor. You only really need
the big name converters if you're going really high power.
And that advice about 12" for a cooler running trans
is correct - and heat is an AOD's biggest enemy.
www.roadrunnerconverters.com

Also, think twice before doing away with lockup.
You lose efficiency and mileage in OD.
If you use a Baumann shift kit, you can retain
lockup without any major disadvantage.
 

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macx said:
The AOD is built differently than most lockup transmissions.

Instead of lockup clutches in the converter, it's got a small
3rd inner input shaft that hooks to a hub inside the converter
and drives the direct drum.

So you end up with nearly full lockup in 3rd which comes
on at the time of the shift, so you go from converter-2nd
to direct/lockup in 3rd.

That also drives lockup in OD.

The stock inner input shaft is weak and breaks fairly
easily. Harder ones are available but they're ~$175.00

Here's some info to some things you can do easily to an
AOD without removing it that will make it live longer
and works fine behind a mostly stock engine.
(Only thing is you have to take the trans out to
put in that stronger inner input shaft.)

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article111.html

Here's info on removing/replacing an AOD
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article48.html
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article91.html

Aftermarket converters from the big names
can be quite expensive - like $300 and WAY up.

I've found this source which will give you a good
durable ~2500 stall lockup for (starting) price
of about $150 for a 12" AOD. (AOD converters are
a little cheaper cuz they don't have lockup clutches.)
They're a reman and beefed oem converter which is
just fine for a fairly stock motor. You only really need
the big name converters if you're going really high power.
And that advice about 12" for a cooler running trans
is correct - and heat is an AOD's biggest enemy.
www.roadrunnerconverters.com

Also, think twice before doing away with lockup.
You lose efficiency and mileage in OD.
If you use a Baumann shift kit, you can retain
lockup without any major disadvantage.
The industries myths you speak of are wrong. The direct drive system is a good idea if only it works correctly. It makes everything weak especially the front cover of the torque converter. Using the direct drive system makes the front cover of the converter have to be paper thin. Even deleting it if you use stock shaft setup the front cover is paper thin meaning it will balloon. Install a 1 piece 31 spline output shaft and use a modified c6 performance converter (shorten the pilot). The direct drive doesn't do as much for efficiency as you would think if you want real efficiency build a 11 inch converter at around 2000 stall with fully brazed fins and tight tolerances. That will be very efficient as well as give major performance gains. The 12 inch converter idea sucks because they just can't handle very high rpms. Using a hardened direct drive shaft is worthless as well because you will just break the damper in the converter or strip the splines out of the direct drum.
Alan
 

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Yes, I have read where guys have broken the hub inside the
converter loose - but I've only read of it on very high power
applications with major traction. Never have heard of it
in a street application, not to say it can't happen, but at least
less likely behind a relatively moderate engine.

I've got a $300 (back about 5 yrs) Carr 12" lockup
converter that's done just fine.

The roadrunner folks beef up the converters so the
anti-ballooning limit is increased to a safe margin
above typical street engine rpms.

Deleting that small inner shaft certainly does eliminate
the weak points, but the replacement one piece shaft etc
can also be somewhat costly.

Before I'd beef an AOD to that point (run it behind a motor
that would necessitate that level of modification) I'd strongly
suggest considering a 4R70W swap. A 3.8 4R out of a 98
or 99-up Stang just needs 1 extra direct clutch plate to equal
the mod motor V8 units, and vb mods are easily done
without a kit (see the trans/tech articles at www.tccoa.com).
Those units totally oem other than the vb mods will hold an
honest 450 hp, which not too many daily driver street motors exceed.

With the Baumann electronic control, you've got complete
programmability of all shift points at all levels of throttle.

Here's the tech info on that swap.
www.lincolnsonline.com/article144.html

Your total cost for that is very comparable to building a stout
AOD.

Either one works - go with your preference.

For a moderate or mild daily drive street motor,
an AOD with the mods in this link to match the level
of your motor can do just fine.
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article111.html
 

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macx said:
Yes, I have read where guys have broken the hub inside the
converter loose - but I've only read of it on very high power
applications with major traction. Never have heard of it
in a street application, not to say it can't happen, but at least
less likely behind a relatively moderate engine.

I've got a $300 (back about 5 yrs) Carr 12" lockup
converter that's done just fine.

The roadrunner folks beef up the converters so the
anti-ballooning limit is increased to a safe margin
above typical street engine rpms.

Deleting that small inner shaft certainly does eliminate
the weak points, but the replacement one piece shaft etc
can also be somewhat costly.

Before I'd beef an AOD to that point (run it behind a motor
that would necessitate that level of modification) I'd strongly
suggest considering a 4R70W swap. A 3.8 4R out of a 98
or 99-up Stang just needs 1 extra direct clutch plate to equal
the mod motor V8 units, and vb mods are easily done
without a kit (see the trans/tech articles at www.tccoa.com).
Those units totally oem other than the vb mods will hold an
honest 450 hp, which not too many daily driver street motors exceed.

With the Baumann electronic control, you've got complete
programmability of all shift points at all levels of throttle.

Here's the tech info on that swap.
www.lincolnsonline.com/article144.html

Your total cost for that is very comparable to building a stout
AOD.

Either one works - go with your preference.

For a moderate or mild daily drive street motor,
an AOD with the mods in this link to match the level
of your motor can do just fine.
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article111.html
I've seen roadrunners work and the only way they can help prevent ballooning is to eliminate the direct drive, I'm not speaking as a moron here I build converters for a living. You do know you can use all the 4r70w parts inside an aod right? The extra plate you are talking about only requires using the 4r direct drum. The high power you are speaking of is about 400ftlb's at that point the spring can and will break in the damper. Yeah the 4r swap is a great idea but much more costly then you'd think the bauminator is expensive and most of the guys using them seem to have problems. The best way would be to use a later wiring harness like a 94/95 and that is going to take serious modifications plus a custom pcm to work with a 4r70w in a car originally equipped with an aod. The explorer harness is probably the best idea but again alot of work and $. I am not an aod fan either i'd much rather have a 4r but not everyone has 4000 to put into a transmission job. If you want to check my references to what I speak do a little asking on tccoa...you'll find alot of knowledge.
Alan
 

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Not trying to argue with you.

I'm close to getting all my parts for a 4R swap.

$200 for an '00 4R in running condition
$200 for a beefed roadrunner 4R police converter w/HD lockup clutch
(I've got a fairly mild 351 that won't see over 6k )
doing the vb mods myself
$400 for the TCS
$200 for parts for me refreshing the trans before I install it
$~40 for some Sonnax valve upgrades

My AOD has the ($100) stamped steel direct drum and an Alto kit
(I think it was near another $100) and a 4 plate intermed clutch,
a $50 Baumann shift kit, about $40 in Sonnax valves, and a $300
Carr converter. When I add in the ~$100 for the rebuild kit and
the ~$175 for the shaft, I've got ~$800 and it's still a weaker gearset,
weaker output shaft, and not as good shift control. Plus I like the
wider ratio gearset for my application and then I'd be adding a bunch more $.

For the 4R swap I looked into converting it to a 94/95 ecu,
either full changeover incl the engine which, I fully agree
would be a real job, or just wiring it alongside the pre-94 ecu
just to run the trans, but it's more difficult to program that
ecu to run the trans than it is to run the motor and which
most dyno shops can't do so I'd have to travel several
hundred miles to a good shop that can do that (per a real
expert anyway who also does this for a very successful career).
I don't have the time or $ for multiple dyno tuning sessions which
it would require to get it right, so using that 94/95 ecu wasn't an option
for me -

I've solicited a lot of feedback from Baumann TCS users and, while
some do report some problems, the majority of them that I've
got answers from recommend it, so that's what I'm going to try
as a better and ultimately, for me, cheaper option that trying to
use a 94/95 ecu.

Not to say my AOD is a bad setup, the 4R option would just
work better in my application. I plan to eventually make my
351 a 393 when I swap the drivetrain into a Factory Five Cobra
when I retire with better H/C/I, and I feel the 4R, maybe with a few
added internal beef-ups and possibly a higher end converter, would
be a better setup everything considered.
 

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macx said:
Not trying to argue with you.

I'm close to getting all my parts for a 4R swap.

$200 for an '00 4R in running condition
$200 for a beefed roadrunner 4R police converter w/HD lockup clutch
(I've got a fairly mild 351 that won't see over 6k )
doing the vb mods myself
$400 for the TCS
$200 for parts for me refreshing the trans before I install it
$~40 for some Sonnax valve upgrades

My AOD has the ($100) stamped steel direct drum and an Alto kit
(I think it was near another $100) and a 4 plate intermed clutch,
a $50 Baumann shift kit, about $40 in Sonnax valves, and a $300
Carr converter. When I add in the ~$100 for the rebuild kit and
the ~$175 for the shaft, I've got ~$800 and it's still a weaker gearset,
weaker output shaft, and not as good shift control. Plus I like the
wider ratio gearset for my application and then I'd be adding a bunch more $.

For the 4R swap I looked into converting it to a 94/95 ecu,
either full changeover incl the engine which, I fully agree
would be a real job, or just wiring it alongside the pre-94 ecu
just to run the trans, but it's more difficult to program that
ecu to run the trans than it is to run the motor and which
most dyno shops can't do so I'd have to travel several
hundred miles to a good shop that can do that (per a real
expert anyway who also does this for a very successful career).
I don't have the time or $ for multiple dyno tuning sessions which
it would require to get it right, so using that 94/95 ecu wasn't an option
for me -

I've solicited a lot of feedback from Baumann TCS users and, while
some do report some problems, the majority of them that I've
got answers from recommend it, so that's what I'm going to try
as a better and ultimately, for me, cheaper option that trying to
use a 94/95 ecu.

Not to say my AOD is a bad setup, the 4R option would just
work better in my application. I plan to eventually make my
351 a 393 when I swap the drivetrain into a Factory Five Cobra
when I retire with better H/C/I, and I feel the 4R, maybe with a few
added internal beef-ups and possibly a higher end converter, would
be a better setup everything considered.
Well $400 for a tcs is a good deal, most of the guys I have talked to spent alot more than that. I think the converter for your setup will be the weak link because it is a 12 inch converter it will be prone to ballooning. The HD lockup clutch you speak of isn't that great either it's just a grooved kevlar lining. I have a high carbon lining I use that increased surface area from about 20 square inches to almost 40 now that is how you make those clutches hold.
Alan
 

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That's interesting - always looking to learn something.

You say you build converters?

If you'd care to, tell me about them, what you've got
that you think would fit my situation, etc.

Thanks!

Oh, the list price on the Baumann last time I
checked their website not too long ago I believe
was in the $425 range, unless I read it wrong.

TCI has a similar programing unit for GM trans,
and their site says they'll have one out for /E's
and 4R's shortly, BUT it's around $1000.
I think I'll at least try the Baumann first!

I scouted around and found a good used one for
a little less - I'm always on a budget.
Most all the major pieces in my 351 are either
good lo miles used or leftovers from somebody
else's projects. Saved about 40% that way.
 

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actually I am laid off right now because business is slow. If you want me to build you one call 513 732 0078 and speak to mike. Rpm requirements of your engine would make the biggest difference in what I would suggest for you.
Alan

macx said:
That's interesting - always looking to learn something.

You say you build converters?

If you'd care to, tell me about them, what you've got
that you think would fit my situation, etc.

Thanks!

Oh, the list price on the Baumann last time I
checked their website not too long ago I believe
was in the $425 range, unless I read it wrong.

TCI has a similar programing unit for GM trans,
and their site says they'll have one out for /E's
and 4R's shortly, BUT it's around $1000.
I think I'll at least try the Baumann first!

I scouted around and found a good used one for
a little less - I'm always on a budget.
Most all the major pieces in my 351 are either
good lo miles used or leftovers from somebody
else's projects. Saved about 40% that way.
 
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