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Discussion Starter #1
I basically don't know much about these. It looks like theres a dial. I'll be getting a S/C soon. I'm gonna install the BAP to save on labour when I get the blower installed. Until I get the S/C what setting do I run the pump at? Then what setting should it be turned to when I go to fire up the car after the install. Its a roush R2300 on a stock engine w/UDP.

Also I've heard to replace the wiring on these units with a bigger gauge...is this a good thing to do??
 

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I basically don't know much about these. It looks like theres a dial. I'll be getting a S/C soon. I'm gonna install the BAP to save on labour when I get the blower installed. Until I get the S/C what setting do I run the pump at? Then what setting should it be turned to when I go to fire up the car after the install. Its a roush R2300 on a stock engine w/UDP.

Also I've heard to replace the wiring on these units with a bigger gauge...is this a good thing to do??
Yes you'll need a larger wire. Your putting more amps to the pump.
 

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Yes you'll need a larger wire. Your putting more amps to the pump.
Kenne Bell just recommends replacing the factory 20a fuse with a 30a fuse and running the factory wire. Since they make the product, I tend to follow their advice.

It is not like this unit draws 30a all the time, just in short bursts.. But, if you feel safer, run a bigger wire.. I can't see needing bigger than 16ga, since you won't be pulling more than a few amps during regular operation, but if you feel better with 12ga, by all means, do what you want.. it won't hurt anything.
 

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Kenne Bell just recommends replacing the factory 20a fuse with a 30a fuse and running the factory wire. Since they make the product, I tend to follow their advice.

It is not like this unit draws 30a all the time, just in short bursts.. But, if you feel safer, run a bigger wire.. I can't see needing bigger than 16ga, since you won't be pulling more than a few amps during regular operation, but if you feel better with 12ga, by all means, do what you want.. it won't hurt anything.
Well 16ga wire is not going to hold 30a. So if KB recommends you run a 20ga wire for 20a your going to go with it because what he says. Keep a fire extinguisher handy. 30a is 30a if its there for 5sec. or 10mins.

I personally wouldn't use one of those things. I would just go with the GT500 pumps. KB isn't the know all of physics.

This is just some info for ironmike. It's just common sense
 

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Well 16ga wire is not going to hold 30a. So if KB recommends you run a 20ga wire for 20a your going to go with it because what he says. Keep a fire extinguisher handy. 30a is 30a if its there for 5sec. or 10mins.

I personally wouldn't use one of those things. I would just go with the GT500 pumps. KB isn't the know all of physics.

This is just some info for ironmike. It's just common sense
Hate to disagree, but amperage and wire ga are all about 2 factors: heat and voltage loss. If you have an 18 ga wire, you can run 30a through it as long as you don't do it for too long, and as long as you don't mind losing some voltage (about .2-.4 volts lost at that amount of current for the length of wire). Even if you ran constant 30 amps, it would probably never heat up enough to cause a fire, although I would not consider it very safe, as the insulation might soften up a little and possibly (although unlikely) allow for a short, which would of course blow the fuse.

On top of this you are talking about a long piece of wire that has only one choke point: the fuse. As you increase the amount of current running through the wire, the wire will more or less uniformly heat up, so the longer wire, while you get more loss of power from resistance, has a lot of mass to heat up, which means you have to run large amounts of current through it for longer periods of time. The fuse will heat up much faster, and eventually pop, long before the wire will.

So any way you look at it, the smaller wire only adds one problematic factor: voltage loss. Being as the BAP is basically an electronic transformer, it's target output is the same, regardless of input voltage. That would mean that your .2-.4 volt loss over the length of the factory wire might raise the amperage draw by a fraction of an amp, depending on the draw of the fuel pump.. There are far more factors that can affect that amperage draw to a greater degree, one being ambient air temp of the battery and another being if the engine is running or just the key being on.

I haven't metered the line for amperage draw, but I am willing to bet that at constant run with the KB BAP running 17.23 volts, the line probably doesn't draw more than 3 or 4 amps. I imagine an initial cold start of the pump under pressure (on battery power, no alternator turning) probably draws a burst of around 20 amps, enough to possibly blow a 20a fuse, which is why they replace the fuse with a 30a. Just because I have 15a breakers in my house for my outlets doesn't mean I always draw 15a from everything. The fuse is just a safety precaution in the event of an electrical malfunction. If the pump seizes and continues to draw power, the fuse will blow long before the wire heats up enough to cause a fire.

I can pretty well guarantee that KB has sold tens of thousands of these units, and most people follow their directions for install, and if it caused problems, they would revise their install procedures.

Having been a professional 12v installer (audio and other electronics) for 10 years, I am comfortable with running the factory 18 ga wire and a 30a fuse. If you are not comfortable, by all means, run a 16 or 12ga wire back there. Just make sure you fuse it where you tap your power..
 

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Hate to disagree, but amperage and wire ga are all about 2 factors: heat and voltage loss. If you have an 18 ga wire, you can run 30a through it as long as you don't do it for too long, and as long as you don't mind losing some voltage (about .2-.4 volts lost at that amount of current for the length of wire). Even if you ran constant 30 amps, it would probably never heat up enough to cause a fire, although I would not consider it very safe, as the insulation might soften up a little and possibly (although unlikely) allow for a short, which would of course blow the fuse.

On top of this you are talking about a long piece of wire that has only one choke point: the fuse. As you increase the amount of current running through the wire, the wire will more or less uniformly heat up, so the longer wire, while you get more loss of power from resistance, has a lot of mass to heat up, which means you have to run large amounts of current through it for longer periods of time. The fuse will heat up much faster, and eventually pop, long before the wire will.

So any way you look at it, the smaller wire only adds one problematic factor: voltage loss. Being as the BAP is basically an electronic transformer, it's target output is the same, regardless of input voltage. That would mean that your .2-.4 volt loss over the length of the factory wire might raise the amperage draw by a fraction of an amp, depending on the draw of the fuel pump.. There are far more factors that can affect that amperage draw to a greater degree, one being ambient air temp of the battery and another being if the engine is running or just the key being on.

I haven't metered the line for amperage draw, but I am willing to bet that at constant run with the KB BAP running 17.23 volts, the line probably doesn't draw more than 3 or 4 amps. I imagine an initial cold start of the pump under pressure (on battery power, no alternator turning) probably draws a burst of around 20 amps, enough to possibly blow a 20a fuse, which is why they replace the fuse with a 30a. Just because I have 15a breakers in my house for my outlets doesn't mean I always draw 15a from everything. The fuse is just a safety precaution in the event of an electrical malfunction. If the pump seizes and continues to draw power, the fuse will blow long before the wire heats up enough to cause a fire.

I can pretty well guarantee that KB has sold tens of thousands of these units, and most people follow their directions for install, and if it caused problems, they would revise their install procedures.

Having been a professional 12v installer (audio and other electronics) for 10 years, I am comfortable with running the factory 18 ga wire and a 30a fuse. If you are not comfortable, by all means, run a 16 or 12ga wire back there. Just make sure you fuse it where you tap your power..
I'm not going to argue with you. You do what you want and if you want to lead some guys down the wrong road that's up to you. I know what I'll do and know. I've worked on everything since '66 from cars, tractor trailers, civilian and military aircraft, and went to 2yrs of industrial electric. So Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I was debating the GT500 pump but Tillmans figures the BAP is a good piece of machinery...I trust em.
 

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I was debating the GT500 pump but Tillmans figures the BAP is a good piece of machinery...I trust em.
Let’s see, box full of VooDoo added into an incredibly overly complex fuel system (BAP)

Or two OEM replacement pumps that don’t add any additional complexity to an already over complex fuel system.

That’s a tough call;)
 

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Let’s see, box full of VooDoo added into an incredibly overly complex fuel system (BAP)

Or two OEM replacement pumps that don’t add any additional complexity to an already over complex fuel system.

That’s a tough call;)
Plus if one pump go out you still have the other to get you home. While the PBA your only over driving your stock pump
 

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I'm not going to argue with you. You do what you want and if you want to lead some guys down the wrong road that's up to you. I know what I'll do and know. I've worked on everything since '66 from cars, tractor trailers, civilian and military aircraft, and went to 2yrs of industrial electric. So Good luck
Sorry, I can't help myself, I have to comment

LOL.. You must be one of those people with a 400 amp service to your house because all your breakers add up to 380.. Why don't you run 4/0 gauge from your battery to your fuse box then? I mean, the fuses there add up to over 300 amps and there is NO way the little 6 gauge battery cable can handle that..

OR, you realize that a fuse is what it is - a protective device meant to prevent fires in case of a dead short. They blow quickly (as opposed to slo-blo fuses or fusible links) so you rate them over the max peak spike in current draw so they don't pop under the most extreme conditions.

BUT, like I said, do what you want.. I will be in the line with the other 10,000 BAP owners who DIDN'T go to the trouble and expense of running a 12 gauge wire to a pump that draws a couple amps under normal load. I just hope you fused it properly so your car doesn't burn down.. (lol, just pokin fun, nothing wrong with being careful).

Just an FYI, I am not just going by what the engineers (who happen to have been building FI systems since before I had a drivers license) say, but I am relying on many years of physics and electrical engineering classes, on top of 10 years in the 12v industry, on top of 10 years of sizing pumps in the water well industry. My company sells pumps, and although we work in 115, 230, and 460v 1, 2, and 3 phase applications, the principles of voltage, current, and resistance remain the same. You size a wire based on the max running load of a pump, you size the fuse (or breaker) on the peak cold start load.

BTW, according to the American Wire Gauge standards, the 18 ga from the factory can only handle 16 amps, so with a 20 amp fuse it's gonna catch fire (sorry, can't help the sarcasm).

Here's one more for ya... The BAP is basically an amplifier. It amplifies the voltage, and regulates it so you can have anywhere from about 11.5-14 volts coming in and get 17.2 going out. The ampilifiers I put in my son's car have a total RMS power output of 4200 watts. At the lowest voltage (11.5), with an efficiency of about 70%, that equates to 520 amps of current draw. Not only do I not have a fuse for 520 amps, but I didn't run wire that can handle 520 amps. I instead ran a 250 amp fuse, and 1/0 cable. The 250 amp fuse will blow if you have more than 250 amps for more than about a second, or almost instantly on a dead short which will draw 1000+ from a good battery. How come the car hasn't caught fire and burned to the ground (or the fuse blown)? Wait, there's more: the wires going from the amplifier to the subs are only 12 gauge, but carry peak power spikes of over 70 amps! Why doesn't the speaker wire melt? And the coil in the subwoofer is about 20ga, "what the deuce?"!

Disclaimer: I apologize if anyone is offended by my sarcasm here. There is nothing wrong with being overly safe, or thinking that it is "just safe enough". I respect everyone's opinion, but sometimes facts are facts, even if you don't like the people that publish them. Fact: The BAP is not quite as reliable as dual GT500 pumps, but it also costs about 75% less, and has been tested to be reliable over the course of many years, under normal circumstances. The people who make it are not idiots selling snake oil - a product that could seriously compromise both the safety and value of a car would not last long on the market if it didn't work or caused damage. Furthermore, vendors like Brenspeed, who have a great reputation on these forums, would not sell the product if it didn't work. It is offensive to anyone with a hint of intelligence to suggest otherwise. Simply stating that you don't like a product, or that you had problems with a particular product is more than enough to say in these forums.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I made the swap to a GT500 fuel pump. Decided I'm gonna need it eventually anyway. Thanks all for the help.:bigthumbsup
 
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