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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After reading some info about the stock 4.6 block being able to handle over 700HP, I decided to look into stroker kits. Stage3Motorsports is local for me, and they sell a 5.1 stroker kit for around $2200! Of course the parts are all forged & can withstand a lot more than the stock rods.

My question is, what kind of performance gain should I see with an extra 5 liters??? The Coyote engine makes 400 hp and tq with 5.0 liters... Would I be over that? (100hp+ increase!? What a deal, at minimum $20 per hp! :happyhapp)

Also, I'm sure I'd need a custom dyno tune as well? :scratchchin


Thanks a lot everyone! :)

Oh yeah, here's the kit!
http://www.stage3motorsports.com/pr...er_Rotating_Assembly__210_Dished_Pistons.html
 

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you might not get that high, but aside from the more stout engine, theres no substitute for cubic inches
 

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Your not going to pickup 100hp from a stroker. Its going to depend on the compression ratio and other things you add to it. If you added ported heads cams and L/T with a good cai you might get close. Stl will chime in with what he has for his old setup
 

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I would get a better kit. Livernoise has some very good kits for sale.
 

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If you just rebuilt your engine with that kit and did nothing else the gains would be not worth it at all. That kit is more for someone who is adding a power adder or at least cylinder heads and cams. If you want Coyote power and want to do it with a reasonable budget get a blower.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Sorry guys, I unfortunately posted this complex question at a bad time. I have about all the info possible below.

Hey everyone, recently I learned that the 4.6 aluminum block can hold a whopping 700 hp! After searching around, I've found some stroker kits that not only will replace and outlast the stock internals under boost, but will also add some more displacement to my stock engine.

I'm gonna say this outright - I know NOTHING about engines overall. I understand the basics, but I don't really know how everything gets put together. I'm looking into a few different kits that will raise the displacement to either 298ci (4.9 stroker) or 311ci (5.1 stroker).

My question is, what kind of work will be needed to be done along with either stroker? I need a new tune, right? Also, what sort of power increase should I see over stock? (That's what I mostly am now.)

My plans include a supercharger at reasonably medium boost... But I'll probably stay below the 14s (PSI) depending on what increase stroker will give me. What should I see while still N/A??? I'll either do the stroker first or run a blower on low boost until I have the $$ for both.

Livernois is one of the most recommended kits on the web, but the fact their stroker kit will cost me the same as the Probe Industries 5.1 stroker kit is questionable. By the way, I'm thinking of opting to this rather than getting a whole new MMR block.

Thanks a lot!

New - Livernois Motorsports - 4.6L 3-Valve 298ci Stroker Rotating Assembly
Stage 3 Motorsports 1996-08 Mustang GT 5.1L Forged Stroker Rotating Assembly - 21.0 Dished Pistons

I would get a better kit. Livernoise has some very good kits for sale.
+10000 on that.
What's wrong with that kit? And yes, I am considering the 298 ci stroker kit from Livernois as well.


That's 1/2 liter, not 5 liters.
Lol... I know! Just a typo. I'm pretty sure you're one of the best people to talk about this too... Any more info??? :scratchchin

If you just rebuilt your engine with that kit and did nothing else the gains would be not worth it at all. That kit is more for someone who is adding a power adder or at least cylinder heads and cams. If you want Coyote power and want to do it with a reasonable budget get a blower.
Exactly... I'm planning on a twin-screw blower haha...
 

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It's pretty easy math. Where the size/hp gain is not exactly 1:1 its very close. Its not a big CU gain so it will not turn things like the induction system into a restriction. We already know that it isn't anyway. If it were the old school easy bolt on would work on the 4.6 3v like they did on the 302 roller motors.

the 4.6 makes about 265rwhp
that is 57.61hp/litre
if you bump the motor to a 5.1 (57.61 x 5.1)
you would be looking very close to 293.80rwhp
a gain of 28.8hp ($76.38 hp/$)

By itself, not a great gain/$$. Cams and long tubes have a better hp/$ ratio and a blower even more so.

In addition to that if you force feed the motor the block will not be as strong if you do a bore and stroke job on it. And since you can get silly power without going with a ci. bump it all comes out to be negatives.

Now if you were going NA and never planed on FI the 5.1 would be a good choice as log as you were going to forge the bottom end anyway. But, if you were going NA you are for the most part limited to about 420rwhp without setting it up to rev to the moon (8,500rpm+) and you do't need a forged bottom end at all.

I most cases the big bore setups are not a great option.
 

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What's wrong with that kit? And yes, I am considering the 298 ci stroker kit from Livernois as well.
Kits are ok if you know what your doing or an experianced builder, but either way I would go with Livernois. Just my .02.
 

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Kits are ok if you know what your doing or an experianced builder, but either way I would go with Livernois. Just my .02.

Me too and I am in no way a fan of their shop.
 

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Tell me if this is correct.

You want to add a stroker kit now. Nothing else. No heads or cams. Then in the future you want to add a twin screw blower. You want to know how much power the stroker will make.


If this is so it might be better if you get the blower first. You will have big power right now. You can do lower PSI and your engine should last. Then when your budget allows you can stroke the engine with the forged internals. Or if your engine blows you will have to rebuild it anyway.

If you get the stroker right now and dont have the compression ratio, cylinder heads, long tubes, or cams you will be driving around in a 300rwhp car. While that is some nice power there are much cheaper easier ways to get 300rwhp. And 300rwhp will be less than the new coyote(If its installed on mustang).

I know Im biased but go with a blower. If your not going to stroke it and add the heads, cams and exhaust the blower is the best way.
I have the Saleen and while its a street blower and is limited in the amount of boost my car drives like stock adn I have not had one problem with it. No belt slip, no cold start issues nothing.
 

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Yes you won't see Coyote like numbers just from an increase in displacement

The 5.0 is a little different in that the heads are DOHC 4V's not SOHC 3v's (If memory serves, they might not be DOHC I can't remember with all the different things I've read about it)

Either forge the motor and pick up F/I at the same time, or separate the two and understand that if you build the motor first you're going to have invested alot up front for not alot of instant gratification.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
My plans include a supercharger at reasonably medium boost... But I'll probably stay below the 14s (PSI) depending on what increase stroker will give me. What should I see while still N/A??? I'll either do the stroker first or run a blower on low boost until I have the $$ for both.

Lol, EARLIER POST FTW! Haha! :shigrin


Yeah, I think a blower would be the best first... Once I want more I'll forge the engine & go from there! But still... What sort of increase will I see with a stroked engine + (twin-screw) blower???
 

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Actually, a stock 3V block can handle way more than 700hp as long as you have the right internals. (Forged, obviously and with a meticulous tune.)

As far as matching the 5.0 Coyote? Pretty standard stuff getting the 3V 4.6 up to 350 NA wheel (OVER 400 crank/SAE) which is comfortably more than the Coyote will make stock.

I'll be beating the 3V drums until you can't get it anymore.. If you have a 3V I wouldn't sweat things too much.

Here is a 4V that got thumped pretty good by a 3V. More proof that boost for boost, 3Vs are a force to be reckoned with:

YouTube - 800 hp Cobra vs. 798 hp Hellion Turbo '05 GT 2

And oh yea, I wouldn't bother with stroking things out unless your going to build the bottom end for boost. If you don't plan on FI, just man up and mod up NA with the internals you have-you don't need fancy internals for NA mods and stroking by itself is not worth the trouble in this case. Just my two cents worth.
 

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What sort of increase will I see with a stroked engine + (twin-screw) blower???
the 4.6 makes about 265rwhp
that is 57.61hp/litre
if you bump the motor to a 5.1 (57.61 x 5.1)
you would be looking very close to 293.80rwhp
a gain of 28.8hp ($76.38 hp/$)
The same math I used above applies here.

-For the easy of calculation lets just say your blower runs 7psi (1/2 atmosphere).
-And that the displacement at 5.1L making 295hp NA
-If you toss a screw blower on making 7.5hp in theory you add half the HP you are makig on top of the NA power.
-295hp NA +147.5 (.5 engine power or .5 atmosphere)= 442.5hp

Buuuuuuut, the above twin screw numbers are all theory. I can make it a bit more accurate by usig what my car is making with a KB and pretend the what would happen if I went with a 5.1L stroker. Well calculate it like I did the NA gains above.

-My KB blown 4.6 makes 464hp
-That makes it 100.87hp/litre
-If you bump the motor to a 5.1 (100.87 x 5.1)
-You would be looking very close to 514.43hp
-A gain of 50.43hp

And we know that the OEM throttle body, heads, cams, manifolds, OEM H-pipe and axle back almost don't pose even a little restriction when working with the KB under 600hp. This makes the above math/predictions very, very close.

If you plan on going over 475hp you wat a shortblock anyway so why not go for a stroker, seems reasoable. I have heard from a lot of people that pushig a ton of boost with the stroker kits weakens the block and things like the crank, head to block surface, etc tend to move around a bit which will cause problems and accelerate wear and can possibly cause things like weeping head gaskets, broken cranks, harmonic balacer ejections, etc. I don't think you would see those sorts of issues all the way up to 650hp though so if you are going to stay under that fire away.

On the other hand you can go with a forged 4.6L bottom and a Kenne Bell. And the only mods being stainless valves for the heads and higher rate valve springs and increase the boost to the 650hp rage and still keep it on pump gas.

or

You could go with a 5.1, ported heads, cams, long tubes, big TB and a KB and get the same 650hp ad be ruing a lot less boost so you won't be on the edge of pump gas. But those extra mods will cost you $2000 for the heads, $750 for the cams, $1000 for log tubes and $400 for the TB (I am guessing on this one). That is another $4150 to get the same 650 and what you would most likely be buying the ability to be further from the edge with pump gas.

I'm most likely going with the first of the two combos and spend the $4150 on other things I want like nice wheels, trans mods, FR500 splitter, carbon fiber rear diffuser, etc. or maybe go straight for the Billy BA Griggs GR40 Super Street Chassis kit, and still have $$ left for the tras mods.

Link to suspesion kit:
http://www.griggsracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=4332_4309_4320_4329&products_id=603
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks a ton for that excellent info, squidd! My goal is over 500rwhp, and I'm not sure at the moment if I'm going to want more then that! I sure don't think so, as it'll be a daily driver... :)

As far as the second option goes, because I'm not looking for INSANE power, I think option 1 sounds like the best to me. Like you said, if I'm going to do forged internals, I might as well get a little more displacement that'll benefit me in the end! With reasonable boost and a good tune, I don't think I should see any problems with the head gaskets, etc (but you never know! ;) ).

As far as stainless valves for the heads and higher rate valve springs... I literally know NOTHING about them. :hihi:

And man do you sure like that Griggs kit! When are you gonna buy it so you can let us know how unbelievable it is!? :laugh: (DO IT! :) )
 

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If you plan on going over 475hp you wat a shortblock anyway so why not go for a stroker, seems reasoable. I have heard from a lot of people that pushig a ton of boost with the stroker kits weakens the block and things like the crank, head to block surface, etc tend to move around a bit which will cause problems and accelerate wear and can possibly cause things like weeping head gaskets, broken cranks, harmonic balacer ejections, etc. I don't think you would see those sorts of issues all the way up to 650hp though so if you are going to stay under that fire away.
Have not really thought about that.. So you are saying that if you plan on going over 650hp might be best to stick with 4.6? Interesting.

I've been torn between turbo and SC but one thing is for sure, I like to keep things simple. I plan on adding the power adder and keeping things stock at first, see what I want to do with the suspension.. then short block/other stuff later with a major boost uppage. (Very easy to do with a Helion) If something gives in the engine the short block will come much sooner of course.

As far as the short block goes, I WAS planning on a stroker mainly because of convenience with the engine out but will have to think about that some more. :scratchchin

In the grand scheme of things, boost/airflow, cooling/intercooling,engine strength and tune is where the power is. Going from 4.6 to 5.1... even 5.4 is really not big enough of a jump for me to get all excited about it. If you just HAVE to have the little extra power then knock yourself out. :so
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
In the grand scheme of things, boost/airflow, cooling/intercooling,engine strength and tune is where the power is. Going from 4.6 to 5.1... even 5.4 is really not big enough of a jump for me to get all excited about it. If you just HAVE to have the little extra power then knock yourself out. :so
Well, the point of the question was this -

If one is going to put forged internals in one's engine, are you better off going with a stroker to get more displacement? I guess the answer is yes... But you are a little more limited later down the road if you want to go big.

I'm one of those guys that likes to knock two birds out with one stone... And I'd rather spend $2200+ and get a little performance, even if it's just a little (and extra 50 isn't bad though! :happyhapp )

And think of all the benefits of having a 5.1 stroked motor! New fender badges! Showing off to your friends! Tell Fox Bodies you have more displacement then them! :laugh:
 

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Well, the point of the question was this -

If one is going to put forged internals in one's engine, are you better off going with a stroker to get more displacement? I guess the answer is yes... But you are a little more limited later down the road if you want to go big.

I'm one of those guys that likes to knock two birds out with one stone... And I'd rather spend $2200+ and get a little performance, even if it's just a little (and extra 50 isn't bad though! :happyhapp )

And think of all the benefits of having a 5.1 stroked motor! New fender badges! Showing off to your friends! Tell Fox Bodies you have more displacement then them! :laugh:
We're mostly on the same page Preston and I agree.. if you got the motor out you might as well take care of everything although I'm not sure exactly how much more money you would spend stroking/forged over just going forged and leaving the displacement as is. Like I said earlier, I'm going to have to do some more research/thinking about the whole reciprocating mass/balance issue with stroking and the problems it can cause. For now, I'm sticking to my contention... 4.6 is NOT a bad level of displacement and as proven, can provide some rather serious power and that can't be argued with. Bottom line, 4.6 just plain works and you have to ask yourself what is worth the trouble and what isn't. For example, I'm one of those people that doesn't understand why someone would swap a 5.4 in place of a 4.6...Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the 5.4 but if you got a 4.6 3v? What's the point? Why would I go through ALL the trouble and hell of swapping a 5.4 in my 06 GT when I can make 600, 700+ wheel by just building what I have? If you got money shooting out of your bottom end and/or you just have a passion then yea but aside from that...???

Hope this makes sense.
 
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