Ford Mustang Forum banner

1 - 12 of 12 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
659 Posts
Discussion Starter #1


Hi all,

Is it me or am I just expecting too much from my $400 programmer and $500 custom dyno tune? Why is it exactly that there are some good gains to be had by simply fine tuning the A/F ratio and timing for a particular car but nobody has really solved a few basic issues like throttle response or driveability and improving part throttle low load fuel milage?

Another problem is that the '05 GT's ECU is not helping us out any with a processor and firmware that have so far resisted increasing horsepower via the same means that have traditionally worked well in previous engines without this new ECU. IMO the truth is that to virtually EVERY tuner in the country, the new Spanish Oak processor is a blackbox they don't really understand and cannot fully control so they hide their lack of knowledge on the "mysteries" of the ECU's logic.

All it seems like the CAI manufactures and dyno "tuners" are really doing is adjusting the way the way the MAF sensor sees the airflow for various MAF housings and CAI piping and changing the ignition curves, inital timing advance to work with their products. Nobody as far as I can tell is really reworking the ECU parameters fully to optimize power and drivability. Nobody is reworking the way the GT's 3-valve cams retard or advance under load or part throttle. Nobody has removed the fly-by-wire throttle's feeling of being a little distant from the actions of the gas pedal, ie. when you lift the engine doesn't chop the throttle blades like I did, they linger open for a bit before coming down.

Just wondering out loud.


Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,065 Posts
Dont forget the use of Charge motion plates.

My VVT is tweeked, but really... unless you do major mods dont expect much. you have a 4.6L motot that is putting out over 1hp/cu in form the factory. Thats pretty bitchin in its own right.

Really Ford did a great job tuning the driveability of our cars and its my opionon that until you crack into Cams/Blowers/head work there is not a lot to be changed other than the A/F ratio and timing curves. The VVT is not magic, it work on the old principle of Hot rodding where installign you cam a few degress ahead gave a few more HP up top and a few degrees behind gave it more Power down low. VVT allows you to have both and based of your Cams Profile that is already been teamed up by the engine designers to work with your heads, adjusting the time in which it actuates is, at best going to be a small improvement. Do a heads/cam swap and then start worrying about it.

Basic mods do not require a Dyno session, the good, and I mean good, tuners/retailers have already put that time in for you. Then you can log your car int he real worl and see if adding more timing or fuel will help your particular car.

If you have questions, I know a man who has answers. Fred, goes by Evolution on the Board... pm him... he can help:cool:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
94 Posts
SportsPix said:


Hi all,

Is it me or am I just expecting too much from my $400 programmer and $500 custom dyno tune? Why is it exactly that there are some good gains to be had by simply fine tuning the A/F ratio and timing for a particular car but nobody has really solved a few basic issues like throttle response or driveability and improving part throttle low load fuel milage?

Another problem is that the '05 GT's ECU is not helping us out any with a processor and firmware that have so far resisted increasing horsepower via the same means that have traditionally worked well in previous engines without this new ECU. IMO the truth is that to virtually EVERY tuner in the country, the new Spanish Oak processor is a blackbox they don't really understand and cannot fully control so they hide their lack of knowledge on the "mysteries" of the ECU's logic.

All it seems like the CAI manufactures and dyno "tuners" are really doing is adjusting the way the way the MAF sensor sees the airflow for various MAF housings and CAI piping and changing the ignition curves, inital timing advance to work with their products. Nobody as far as I can tell is really reworking the ECU parameters fully to optimize power and drivability. Nobody is reworking the way the GT's 3-valve cams retard or advance under load or part throttle. Nobody has removed the fly-by-wire throttle's feeling of being a little distant from the actions of the gas pedal, ie. when you lift the engine doesn't chop the throttle blades like I did, they linger open for a bit before coming down.

Just wondering out loud.


Cheers
Why don't you give my C&L/XCal2 or JLT II/XCal2 Combo a try, I
guarantee you'll change your mind! :thumbsup

Take that Steeda CAI and Diablo Programmer and throw it in the trash! :yup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
The factory tunes must continue to be fairly conserative 'cause I have the C&L intake with a tune and can tell you it really changed the way the car performed. Was it like a 1 sec 10 MPH improvement, hell no, but an improvement in throttle response and power that is very noticable. Still, I happen to agree with what Kyle posted, as the factory tunes get more optimized it becomes harder and harder to make a lot more power just by tweaking tune alone. Look with the factory does to increase HP/cu in, improve heads, exhaust, cam timing, intake design, forced induction, etc., with a very safe tune to tie it all together and keep the customer from blowing it up before warranty runs out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,170 Posts
Evolution said:
Why don't you give my C&L/XCal2 or JLT II/XCal2 Combo a try, I
guarantee you'll change your mind! :thumbsup

Take that Steeda CAI and Diablo Programmer and throw it in the trash! :yup:
Do you give discounts to forum members? :laughlitt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
I beleive there are too many so called tuners trying to do the tuning and really not knowing what' s going on .Then again I guess it lot easier to grenade someone elses motor then ur own..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
94 Posts
pcfrisch said:
Do you give discounts to forum members? :laughlitt
Hell yeah I do! Which combo were you interested in?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Evolution said:
Hell yeah I do! Which combo were you interested in?
What's the cost of the C&L/XCal2 combo? BTW I can only get 91 gas in CA
:( so do you have a tune for that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
659 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Hi Evolution,

Can you explain why should I toss the Predator? It worked well enough to give me a solid 25rwhp peak power increase and an very noticable 18rwhp mid-range 3,000-4,500RPM rwhp bump on a Mustang chassis dyno with a custom tune with a Steeda CAI and the 93 octane CAI tune on a new engine with under 1,200 miles on it. Is there something the Diablo custom tuning software package can't do that the SCT custom tuning software can? Or is it that you just do not have the Diablo hardware and programing software to tune with both?

I have not seen any better peak power or torque area under the curve for a given combination when switching between SCT and Diablo. They seem to be capable of producing tunes that are comperable with minimal work. From what I've seen Diablo's Predator for the '05 GT came out of the box ready to play and you didn't have to wait for SCT to get their act together to get the features SCT advertised but did not deliver on until they published much later firmware revisions. From what I have read until very recently many of the features that SCT advertised starting with the XCal-1 didn't work until later releases of the XCal-2 box and the upgrade policy was ineffect you own the XCal-1 so now you need to buy the new XCal-2 box. I've also read many stories about previous versions of SCT products that advertised features that were never implemented and the upgrade policy seems pretty bad to boot. From a customer standpoint it seems that a lot of people switched to Diablo because SCT's policies are not very generous and Diablo's Predator was ready and working when released.

I'm willing to try your C&L/XCal2 combo if you are willing to give an 80% credit for the Steeda 90mm CAI and Steeda Predator kit I bought AND the C&L CAI with your tune and SCT XCal2 can produce repeatable higher peak rwhp AND at least 5% more power under the curve. Otherwise your tune is just like everybody else and offers no advantage on the asphalt. My car is not a dyno queen and peak HP is less important than repeatable power with more area under the curve and reliability.

Show me a typical dyno chart for an '05 GT 5-speed with 3.55-3.90's, CAI with headers, race cats and X-pipe with your XCal2 tune. Have you tuned any 3-valve cars with ported heads yet? What did you get out of them? I'd love to see the charts.

Cheers

Evolution said:
Why don't you give my C&L/XCal2 or JLT II/XCal2 Combo a try, I
guarantee you'll change your mind! :thumbsup

Take that Steeda CAI and Diablo Programmer and throw it in the trash! :yup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
You picked up 25rwhp w/h a cold air & a tune & you're griping?!? How much power do you think you should see? Not trying to be a smart aleck but I think your goals are way too optimistic,besides,I'm an SCT dealer & I'll even say that you should have seen some good drivability/throttle response gains w/h the Diablo stuff,and seeing as how you say you gained 25rwhp w/h it I don't think you could ask for much more.If you honestly don't think anybody has a handle on the Spanish Oak stuff, go to(hope I don't get canned for recommending another site) www.modulardepot.com & read Jerry W.'s tech article about supercharging an '05 GT & then tell me nobody knows anything about it & Diablo has some good tuners as well,heck alot of tuners use BOTH ( I don't,can't afford both software packages :) ) It's not the software,it's the TUNER's ability!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
From all I've read on the subject, it seems to me that the biggest difference in daily street driving comes from the tuners turning the factory's retarded torque control off.

If I could find out how to turn that off myself, I would be reluctant to shell out the $400, since my Stang is my everyday car. The sharpened throttle response means more to me than .3 seconds of my ET...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,235 Posts
lilxtra said:
You picked up 25rwhp w/h a cold air & a tune & you're griping?!? How much power do you think you should see? Not trying to be a smart aleck but I think your goals are way too optimistic,besides,I'm an SCT dealer & I'll even say that you should have seen some good drivability/throttle response gains w/h the Diablo stuff,and seeing as how you say you gained 25rwhp w/h it I don't think you could ask for much more.If you honestly don't think anybody has a handle on the Spanish Oak stuff, go to(hope I don't get canned for recommending another site) www.modulardepot.com & read Jerry W.'s tech article about supercharging an '05 GT & then tell me nobody knows anything about it & Diablo has some good tuners as well,heck alot of tuners use BOTH ( I don't,can't afford both software packages :) ) It's not the software,it's the TUNER's ability!
I agree, its the tuner that really makes a difference. I use to hasve an LS1 powered car and i had a programer and its always wise to use the best tuner that you can find, or any programer wont get its full potential. 25 RWHP is great! i have the same setup C&L with Diablo and the 91 octane tune was very noticeable, i havent dyno'ed it yet, but will soon and see how much hp gains between tunes. As reference, i only got 15 HP increase on my LS1 powered car with a custom tune, so the 4.6 surely responds much better.
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Top