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I've also thought about this. Do you know if that HE will bolt right into the existing M90 setup on an 05-09 style mustang? I'm also thinking about doing the FR500S radiator and fan upgrade as well FR500S Radiator and Fan Upgrade: Daily Driven S197 Mustang. Which "pump" are you referring to?
I don't know how the HE system is run on the Roush setup, but HE/IC loops are very simple.

The 2013/2014 GT500 HE mounts right up, but a lot of 05-09 guys have to do a little bumper trimming to clear. The thing is massive.

Factory radiator fan is fine. That thing moves some air. Even Jason Etter was road coursing his 07 at nearly 1000whp with the factory fan. I'm running a Champion radiator I picked up for $202 shipped. It's been great.

The pump I'm referring to is the 2013/2014 GT500 HE pump. It moves about 1.5x the water as the Bosch pump, fast enough that you generally even need to bypass your degas tank to reduce foaming. Water speed is king in controlling IATs.
 

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No wonder this website is slowing down , trying to add pics to a post is impossible. 15 minutes of trying to upload and no luck....
 

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No wonder this website is slowing down , trying to add pics to a post is impossible. 15 minutes of trying to upload and no luck....
Yeah, I generally stick to the Facebook forums now simply because traffic on these has plummeted, and the software is over a decade outdated.

I'd advise joining the Department of Boost and 3v Mustang Nation groups on Facebook. 3v Mustang Nation is a private group started by the old fast guys from S197Forum before it shifted in the early 2010s (where I and many of our other members came to AFM from back then).
 

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Discussion Starter #26
I've had similar issues and it's been due to photo size - they have to be small. You can shrink them using MS Paint. (Probably better ways but I'm pretty computer-tech illiterate.)
 

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Monitor your IAT2s via the OBDII port. Your IAT connections should be unpinned from your MAF and wired to a temperature sensor in the intake manifold after the compressed intake air leaves the intercooler. Anything over ~128 degrees Fahrenheit is pulling timing on most 93 octane tunes, even sooner on lower octanes.

Your IATs will go up significantly when idle vs at speed and in boost/out of boost. With the 2011 GT500 HE and pump, I was seeing 90-105 degree IAT2s while cruising and up to 140 degrees at WOT and 13psi with a Department of Boost kit. Yours are likely much higher than that.

The factory Roush tune is SOFT. Email Lito and get a real tune. You'll need an SCT handheld, laptop, and wideband with an analog output. He charges $300 for an FI tune and it is well worth it over the canned Roush tune. His email is [email protected]

You sure you don't mean IAT1? Seeing over 128 on a true IAT2 is pretty common, especially at idle when there is not much air moving through the intake. With my Kenne Bell, I can sit and let my car idle for 30 mins and see 130 degrees IAT2 on a 50 degree day. I was told by two different tuners and Kenne Bell that this was normal, and I have seen no evidence that the computer has ever pulled timing on my setup.


With an IAT1 measured closer to the air filter, I can see where 128+ is getting hot. But, a true IAT2 reading down closer to the intercooler will show much hotter, and I don't think most tunes pull timing that early. I realize that my IAT2s will come down when I goose the throttle and create air flow, but I have a hard time believing that I can reach 130 by letting the car idle and timing gets pulled as low as 128 when moving.
 

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I believe it is the air temperature entering the cylinders that is important, and this should be measured downstream of the intercooler. The incoming air gets hot when the supercharger compresses it, and the intercooler is supposed to cool it back down before it enters the cylinders. To work correctly the system should be pulling timing based on the temperature that is coming in to the cylinders, not some other temperature somewhere else in the system.

Kenne Belle has a reputation for running hot and not achieving their advertised HP numbers in the real world, so I'm not too surprised that they told you that. Or maybe when the car is moving the temps drop right down and that's why you don't feel it pulling timing.
 

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If it was a Kenne Belle deal with advertised numbers, that would have been apparent during dyno tuning -- especially if it was pulling timing. It wasn't.


As was explained to me, many superchargers might appear cooler because of exactly where in the process the air temp is being measured. Perhaps that's why some pull timing so much earlier (128+). With the Kenne Belle, it was explained to me that it measures at a particularly warm location . . . so timing isn't pulled until registered temps are much higher.


All that said, when at idle, there is very little air going through. The IATs will be very warm. Cracking the throttle cools everything down. I just can't see that IATs at idle are already at a point where timing is pulled if I was to immediately haul a$$.
 

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You sure you don't mean IAT1? Seeing over 128 on a true IAT2 is pretty common, especially at idle when there is not much air moving through the intake. With my Kenne Bell, I can sit and let my car idle for 30 mins and see 130 degrees IAT2 on a 50 degree day. I was told by two different tuners and Kenne Bell that this was normal, and I have seen no evidence that the computer has ever pulled timing on my setup.


With an IAT1 measured closer to the air filter, I can see where 128+ is getting hot. But, a true IAT2 reading down closer to the intercooler will show much hotter, and I don't think most tunes pull timing that early. I realize that my IAT2s will come down when I goose the throttle and create air flow, but I have a hard time believing that I can reach 130 by letting the car idle and timing gets pulled as low as 128 when moving.
I am sure. IAT2s are of focus. On most 93 tunes, timing starts being pulled at around 128 degrees, but some tuners push it slightly higher depending on compression, pounds of boost, etc. It can generally go into the 150s before pulling on E85.

The KB has one of the worst intercoolers on the market. They all run hot on the 3v. The timing pull will only be in closed loop operation, under full throttle. And yes, your IATs are high at idle. Underhood temperatures are generally north of 180 degrees, which is why I'm throwing Track Spec vents in mine next month.

Mine are below 130 at WOT and 13psi on 3rd gear pulls from 2.5-6k on an 85 degree day, but I have an adequate HE, pump, and intercooler :)
 

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I believe it is the air temperature entering the cylinders that is important, and this should be measured downstream of the intercooler. The incoming air gets hot when the supercharger compresses it, and the intercooler is supposed to cool it back down before it enters the cylinders. To work correctly the system should be pulling timing based on the temperature that is coming in to the cylinders, not some other temperature somewhere else in the system.

Kenne Belle has a reputation for running hot and not achieving their advertised HP numbers in the real world, so I'm not too surprised that they told you that. Or maybe when the car is moving the temps drop right down and that's why you don't feel it pulling timing.
Right on. Charge air temperature is raised by 12.8-14.1 degrees Fahrenheit per pound of compression (boost). So take that IAT1, and say it's 100 degrees. At 10psi, you're compressing that IAT1 to an additional ~135 degrees, so your charge air hitting your IC is now around 230 degrees. Your IC has the responsibility of dropping this charge air to a safe temperature.

Reasons the KB is known for this:

The IC inlet and outlet sizes are only 0.416". This is TINY. Not to mention the super restrictive FOUR 90 degree street elbows. Mine are 3/4"

The IC is only 170 cubic inches. More TINY. Mine is 202.5 cubic inches.

Pump. The KB uses the Bosch pump. He's moving under 5gpm due to the pump and tiny IC fittings.

Heat Exchanger. Just look at the KB HE next to a 2013 GT500 one. The GT500 one is over 3x the size.
 

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Lots of anti-Kenne Belle homerism going on here, and lots of "look how good my car is."


Regardless, I just got an Aeroforce gauge, and I only had it hooked up long enough to read IAT2 at idle before I disconnected it -- I'm in the process of installing multiple gauges at once to a center pod, so its still a work in process.


Just for my learning, that's when I called my tuner, another tuner I might end up using in the future, and Kenne Belle. Amongst other things, we talked about the IAT2 temps, and each told me 135 reading after idling for 40 minutes is normal partly because of where Kenne Belle places it's sensor, but mostly because the air is being heat soaked by the hot engine with no cool air being sucked in by the intake because the throttle plate is closed. As soon as you crack the throttle and cool air comes rushing in, the temp drops. Think about it ---- you could have the largest intercooler, HE, and pump in the world, but if there is no air flow going over the intercooler, it's not going to help much. Kenne Bell also noted that temps will be higher at steady cruise because of the relatively closed throttle plate.


I originally piped in because I had a hard time believing 135 was normal at idle (as I had just been told), but then the computer would pull timing at 128+ (as posted here). Perhaps both are accurate . . . timing would be pulled at 128+ if at open throttle, but the temp drops quickly and significantly as soon as you give it gas so you don't actually see that temp when moving.


I am confident that my SC and cooling are operating as designed -- again, it was just dyno tuned less than 500 miles ago with no evidence of timing being pulled and with the #s coming in where I expected to see them. Soon as I get the entire gauge pod hooked up, I'll do some wide open runs and let you know what the "Crazy over the top Kenne Bell" temps are :)
 

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Lots of anti-Kenne Belle homerism going on here, and lots of "look how good my car is."


Regardless, I just got an Aeroforce gauge, and I only had it hooked up long enough to read IAT2 at idle before I disconnected it -- I'm in the process of installing multiple gauges at once to a center pod, so its still a work in process.


Just for my learning, that's when I called my tuner, another tuner I might end up using in the future, and Kenne Belle. Amongst other things, we talked about the IAT2 temps, and each told me 135 reading after idling for 40 minutes is normal partly because of where Kenne Belle places it's sensor, but mostly because the air is being heat soaked by the hot engine with no cool air being sucked in by the intake because the throttle plate is closed. As soon as you crack the throttle and cool air comes rushing in, the temp drops. Think about it ---- you could have the largest intercooler, HE, and pump in the world, but if there is no air flow going over the intercooler, it's not going to help much. Kenne Bell also noted that temps will be higher at steady cruise because of the relatively closed throttle plate.


I originally piped in because I had a hard time believing 135 was normal at idle (as I had just been told), but then the computer would pull timing at 128+ (as posted here). Perhaps both are accurate . . . timing would be pulled at 128+ if at open throttle, but the temp drops quickly and significantly as soon as you give it gas so you don't actually see that temp when moving.


I am confident that my SC and cooling are operating as designed -- again, it was just dyno tuned less than 500 miles ago with no evidence of timing being pulled and with the #s coming in where I expected to see them. Soon as I get the entire gauge pod hooked up, I'll do some wide open runs and let you know what the "Crazy over the top Kenne Bell" temps are :)
135 is normal at idle, as I already stated due to under hood temperatures. IAT2 in closed loop is the concern.

And yes, plenty of us have dealt with KB and have hard feelings due to the design. It's the only blower I've ever dealt with that suffered bearing failures at under 10k miles due to it heating up and close proximity of certain components. After that issue plagued so many, they came out with their "liquid cooled case" which is just a bandaid for poor design.

Here's a good read.

3v Positive Displacement Supercharger Buyers Guide
 

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Okay, gotcha. Will report back with some full throttle stuff when I get the gauges up and running.


That Dept of Boost stuff is a good read. I have read other stuff from them, and I always appreciated that they take the time to educate us.


I would not judge their conclusions as false, but would certainly take them with a grain of salt. They obviously concluded their blowers were the best . . . which they might be.


The criticisms of the KBs might be legit, and their conclusions accurate, but the descriptions contain a few inaccurate, albeit inconsequential, details . . . to say nothing of the "cut and paste" they did from one KB model description to the next. That hurts credibility a little.


Sorry about your past experience with KB. To be honest, I bought this car with the KB on it, and this is my first from them. I am still learning all the pros and cons. Have had a Roush SC in the past (on a 5.0), and I liked it a lot.
 

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I was just trying to clarify the intent of "IAT" relative to pulling timing, intercooler, etc. in case the OP was getting confused; and it seemed like maybe KB was throwing up a smoke screen that was confusing things.
 

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Sorry about your past experience with KB. To be honest, I bought this car with the KB on it, and this is my first from them. I am still learning all the pros and cons. Have had a Roush SC in the past (on a 5.0), and I liked it a lot.
Roush tends to make some fantastic stuff. I'm sure that was a fun ride. I apologize if I rubbed you wrong, and I hope you enjoy the car. Just know that you're likely never running full timing. At 450whp (stock bottom end capabilities), you may be able to see full timing with an adequate HE and pump. I'd also jump to an 8 rib belt if you haven't already, as KBs chew belts for some reason. If you need help with an 8 rib conversion, let me know, as I've done one on mine.

No, I do not like KB due to my experiences with them and their design, as an engineer. But I do hope yours serves you well and that you enjoy your car
 

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I was just trying to clarify the intent of "IAT" relative to pulling timing, intercooler, etc. in case the OP was getting confused; and it seemed like maybe KB was throwing up a smoke screen that was confusing things.
Roush tends to make some fantastic stuff. I'm sure that was a fun ride. I apologize if I rubbed you wrong, and I hope you enjoy the car. Just know that you're likely never running full timing. At 450whp (stock bottom end capabilities), you may be able to see full timing with an adequate HE and pump. I'd also jump to an 8 rib belt if you haven't already, as KBs chew belts for some reason. If you need help with an 8 rib conversion, let me know, as I've done one on mine.

No, I do not like KB due to my experiences with them and their design, as an engineer. But I do hope yours serves you well and that you enjoy your car
Okay, to finish hijacking this thread, I figured I'd report back as promised now that I have the gauges complete. Bottom line, I do believe you are probably right that the KBs run a little hot. Whether it is material or unusual during "real world" driving is debatable.


I have the KB Stage 1 with CAI, headers, and high flow cats. Of note, I had a fresh change of 50/50 coolant in the intercooler system.


On Saturday, I did lots of back road driving; some full throttle, some slow turns, some higher speed. I drove the crap out of it to kind of mimic light "road course" driving. It was only 60-65* outside, so conditions were good. Driving like that (hard and with a bunch of "off throttle" driving after punching it), the IAT2s stayed around 120*. At the end of a run, I saw as high as 127*, and it dropped down to 118* at one point.


So, last night, I sucked a bunch of the coolant out and added distilled water. Got to about a 25/75 mix (75% water), which is what KB recommends anyway. I also added 4 oz of Water Wetter. Went driving, with the ambient temperature nearly identical to Saturday (60-65). I ran it hard, and the IAT temp stayed around 107*. At the end of some hard 3rd gear pulls, I saw 115 and 116*, but it immediately dropped back down to under 110* when I was done.


I called KB to get schooled some more. The guy there was very helpful, and he talked to the tuner who set up the original KB stock tune. With the stock KB tune (mine is dyno'd, but I can't imagine it is too far off), the car will start pulling timing after 125*. But, it is pulled commensurate with how far over 125 you go, i.e. getting to 130* doesn't end up with much power loss.


I'm sure on a 100* ambient temp day, I would see well over 125* IAT2. Perhaps, in the future, I will invest in a better HE or pump. But, before I installed the gauge and could actually see the IATs, my butt dyno never told me that timing was ever pulled during those hot summer drives. Keep in mind, this is a "for fun" weekend street driver; I do not track it.


Take it for what it is worth.
 
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