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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What's the difference between shorty headers and long headers?
 

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..

umm...long is good for mid range speed,i wouldnt know about shortys but i wouldnt want to cut a price for performance factors.
 

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stangracer said:
umm...long is good for mid range speed,i wouldnt know about shortys but i wouldnt want to cut a price for performance factors.
So long isnt good off the line? I'm guessing it's not cuz it takes longer to push the exhaust out?

Basically I'm planning on throw in a CAI and tune, so I felt maybe I should increase the air flow with a better exahaust...good idea bad idea? Or should I just get some axle-backs, cuz I hear the restrictive part of the exhaust is the muffler?
 

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I've read lots on the subject. Quick answer is shorty's are for looks! and the mid to long tubes will give you power. careful on the diameter too. small (1 5/8") is better for non supercharged. There's really a lot to it. but this is the quick answer for you.
 

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not quite right

Hi Gig4Fun,

Shortys can add plenty of power if the stock manifold is poor and in comparison lung tubes add more power if the tubing is sized well for the application. On an '05 GT good shortys like (JBA's), on a stock car are good for 10-12rwhp. On a car with good intake mods (Steeda or C&L with 90mm MAF housing), and custom dyno tune, about the same. But on a car with race cats and X or H pipe or off road versions and hi-flow muffs a little less. This is what I found on the dyno anyway.

Cheers

Gig4Fun said:
I've read lots on the subject. Quick answer is shorty's are for looks! and the mid to long tubes will give you power. careful on the diameter too. small (1 5/8") is better for non supercharged. There's really a lot to it. but this is the quick answer for you.
 

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SportsPix said:
Hi Gig4Fun,

Shortys can add plenty of power if the stock manifold is poor and in comparison lung tubes add more power if the tubing is sized well for the application. On an '05 GT good shortys like (JBA's), on a stock car are good for 10-12rwhp. On a car with good intake mods (Steeda or C&L with 90mm MAF housing), and custom dyno tune, about the same. But on a car with race cats and X or H pipe or off road versions and hi-flow muffs a little less. This is what I found on the dyno anyway.

Cheers
Ha haha ! yeh, I suppose I just posted what my attitude is at the moment!

I have read of only 1 to 3 HP gains on some shorty's....BUT this is the internet and one can read anything. Now I just read what you said!

Thank you for the real life numbers.

cheers ! :drink: And I literally mean it! (Gin/Tonic and a nice fire in the fireplace going...)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
If I'm just adding a tune, CAI, and some pullies, is it necessary to add non-stock headers? I'm not really looking for more power, just want to make sure the exhaust has enough flow.
 

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SportsPix said:
Hi Gig4Fun,

Shortys can add plenty of power if the stock manifold is poor and in comparison lung tubes add more power if the tubing is sized well for the application. On an '05 GT good shortys like (JBA's), on a stock car are good for 10-12rwhp. On a car with good intake mods (Steeda or C&L with 90mm MAF housing), and custom dyno tune, about the same. But on a car with race cats and X or H pipe or off road versions and hi-flow muffs a little less. This is what I found on the dyno anyway.

Cheers
In the 05 mustang exhaust shootout part 3 MM&FF November 2005 they tested 4 shorties against the stock logs. The best shorties in the shootout were the JBA Cat4ward.

All tests were performed with a Bassani X-Pipe and mufflers from parts 1 and 2 of the shootout.

Stock manifolds

Max 323.7lb-ft 298.9hp
Ave 299.3lb-ft 244.3hp

Jba Shorty Headers

Max 325.3lb-ft 303.8hp
Ave 303.1lb-ft 247.3hp

" By adding headers, an X-pipe, and an after axle exhaust system, the AFM (Anderson Ford Mustang) test mule picked up as much as 14rwhp and 12lb-ft rwtq.

The gains for JBA Longtubes with a catted H-Pipe and JBA axlebacks are roughly double. This is with a more restrictive (but better sounding in my opinion) H-Pipe.

http://www.jbaheaders.com/images/dyno/05mustangdyno.jpg
 

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Short Vs. Long

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but theMM&ff test looks to me to be more advantagious to ad the x-pipe and mufflers.{at least to do those first}.
The headers only gained 4 hp on the average? At least the x-pipe and the mufflers would be easier, but not cheaper.IMO.
 

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There's no gain in the muffs, or at best 1-2hp. The posted gains are due to the other components. i.e. the headers, hi-flow cats, x/h pipe.
 

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All mag write-ups are advertiser driven, MMFF are the worst! They won't write a tech articlae about anything that's not paying them in advertisement! Heck they have pictures of oil bottles in their tech write-ups!!

I'd go off-road LT to X and stock. No power after the cross-over and it will be loud enough. Plus it will pick up some 20 RWHP!

I have and like the Kooks system allot, www.modulardepot.com have it on sale, dunno if AFM members still can get an additional discount...?!? (If your car is lowered keep in mind that the large high flow cats (if you get them) will be the lowest part under your car and maybe too low if you have bad roads.)
 

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Hi kj,

I pretty much have to agree with you. IMO the ideal system with the MOST bang for the buck on a N/A engine would have to be a good set of long tubes with 1 5/8" primaries run to a catless, large radius full diam. X-pipe cross-over and then out to the stock mid-pipes and mufflers. On a stock '05/'06 GT different rear muffs are not really adding much power it's minimal from the best of them. On an '05/'06 GT with long tube headers and a catless X-pipe you will need what little backpressure the stock mufflers present to the engine to minimize low end torque loss. I figure that a good set of long tubes (Kook's or JBA), with a good off road X-pipe with stock rear muffs to be good for an honest 20-22rwhp, about the same as a good CAI and computer programer like Diablo or X2.

On a car with a good CAI, shorty headers, race cats and good X-pipe the rear mufflers may play a bit larger role. But I saw very little power difference (not a repeatable difference), between the JBA EVOL rear muffs (large capacity 2 chamber muffler w/4" inlet and 4" outlet), and the stock Ford muffs on the dyno with this setup and no changes in A/F ratio with any of the different muffs I tried (for these runs Magnaflow, Borla & Flowmaster), after a custom dyno tune was installed in the GT's computer.

Yup, running long tubes with cats creates big ground clearance issues for those with lowered road cars. For those with sport springs that lower the car 1" or less and keep the stock tall 27" tire you should be O.K. with careful driving and speed bump avoidance. For the hardcore sport suspension cars there is just not enough clearance to run cats with long tubes and you will have to go with a cat-less off road X-pipe which makes for a loudish car at large throttle openings but not bad at all at part throttle and cruising speeds. It's about the same noise level as running high flow or race cats in the stock cat location with shorty headers.

For those looking to keep cats in their exhaust system and keep their hardcore sports car type suspension vs. a drag oriented suspension setup (they are VERY different), in their car the only practical choice is going to be shorty headers with cats and an X or H pipe crossover in the stock locations and the rear mufflers or your choice. The stock Ford catted H-pipe is not a bad piece but when I swapped a Magnaflow Tru-X pipe with high flow cats in place of the stock catted H-pipe we found about 7rwhp at peak, more in the mid-range), on my car that already had JBA shortys, JBA EVOL rear muffs, Steeda CAI and a custom 93 octane dyno tune developed on the stock catted H-pipe. I figure that JBA shortys and Magnaflow Tru-X pipe w/high flow cats and STOCK rear muff was worth at least 15rwhp (at peak power), on the car with Steeda CAI and a 93 octane custom dyno tune.

Cheers

kj_cinci said:
All mag write-ups are advertiser driven, MMFF are the worst! They won't write a tech articlae about anything that's not paying them in advertisement! Heck they have pictures of oil bottles in their tech write-ups!!

I'd go off-road LT to X and stock. No power after the cross-over and it will be loud enough. Plus it will pick up some 20 RWHP!

I have and like the Kooks system allot, www.modulardepot.com have it on sale, dunno if AFM members still can get an additional discount...?!? (If your car is lowered keep in mind that the large high flow cats (if you get them) will be the lowest part under your car and maybe too low if you have bad roads.)
 

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Where did the myth of you need back pressure come from?

Its so not true... the best headers will scavage the exhaust out of the cylinder producing a suction on it and actually creating negative back pressure.

Why do you want to use the power being created by another cylinder to push the exhaust out? Let physics do its job and increase the effeciency of your engine. When a gas moves in a pressurized pulse, it leaves an area of low pressure behind it. Thus this is the reason a smaller primary tube works better on a N/A set up than a larger. It keeps a small enough volume to keep the high pressure pulse together where the larger volume will allow it to dissipate and not leave the low pressure behind it. Though if you are running forced induction, you can take advantage of larger diameter primaries.

This is what a "tuned' header does, and what equal lengths try to do. Shorties are just smoother than factory logs and present this principle slightly, but loose their effect very quickly in the RPM range. The stock S197 "Logs" are not that bad and is why you see minimal gains with shorties.

The exhaust system is a pressurised system, not a vacume like the intake. So dont let someone fool you with longer runners make more power down low and shorter ones make it up high. Simple fact is in a pressurised environment the rules change.

Simply stated Long Tubes are better for average torque and horsepower over the entire range. Not just peak at one point.

I am going to be getting a set of Kooks Long tubes soon for all the reasns listed above. I would be willing to do a Dyno run on shorties before I install my long tubes if anyone want a back to back comparrison on a dyno... all somone has to do is donate their choice pair to me for long enough to install, test, remove, and ship back.

We can compare graphs from 2000-6500 RPM on both.
 

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My Kooks system sounds great to the JBAs. The JBAs are for looks and sound though. Next week ehn I'm switching the mid pipe to the off road one it might get to loud...?? We'll see... luckily I still have the stock muffs so I'll try that then... and again will keep you posted.

I have before and after dyno on swap from stock headers to cats, Bassani X and JBAs to Kooks Headers, cats and X... and I'll let you know from stock to CATTED Kooks really is +20 RWHP, off road prolly closer to 30!!!
 

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At MD there is two awesome writups from Jerry, objective (have no opinion, short, long, or mid) and I'll glue them in here below. For those of you that don't know Jerry is one of the minds behind, at and with SCT. He have seen all and any combination on the dyno and prolly 10's of 1000's of pulls!!! :tongue

Post 1:

"Here's my 2 cents on long tubes....

While most of the mod motor guys have gone long tube crazy, they really don't know why. They all "claim" that long tubes make more power. Make more power than what? Stock manifolds, sure, you bet. More power than shorties? Not a chance.

The length of a header tube is like an intake manifold runner length. The longer the runner the more low end torque, but less top end power. The shorter the tube the less low end torque, but you get more top end power.

Now, with a mod motor, that is displacement challenged and lacks low end, I'm not arguing that a long tube header is not a good thing. But, to tell someone that a long tube header makes more power is total BS and shows the writers ingnorance of internal combustion engines (and probably propagates internet myths as well). I'm not implying that Bill has done this at all, but there are people out there that do spread this falsehood.

Bottom line, with all else being equal, runner diameter and exhaust backpressure measured in the collector as well as equal lenght runners, a shorty will make more power than a longtube. Does this mean your car is going to be quicker with a shorty? Maybe, maybe not. Any real dragracer will tell you the first 60 ft or so has a HUGE impact on ET, more than adding a bunch of HP will (look at Kens car, he's a lot qucker than a lot of you blower guys, but makes less power, why? He has a good 60 ft time). So, if a long tube gets you more torque in this range, which then allows you to 60 ft better, the car will probably be quicker in the 1/4 mile.

If your a dyno queen and race numbers, and there are people out there that do, then put on a good shorty.

One thing not mentioned in this is the fact that keeping the O2 sensors warm is a big deal with long tubes. People have driveability problems since the sensors stay too cold. Some of this can be adjusted in the tuning/chip, some of it is controlled by the design.

Very few things are cut and dry, almost everything is a tradeoff..."

Post 2:


"A mid length is a decent comprimise of what I stated and what boss96 confirmed.

A long tube header is good for low-mid range torque, a shorty is good for mid-high RPM HP. On an NA car, if you are geared pretty steep (I'll use Ken's car as an example, he has 4.30 gears) then you spend so little time at low RPM, that, under drag racing conditions, you won't see much gain. If you have stock gearing in your car, 3.27 for the 99+ guys, then you spend a lot of time at lower RPM in a drag race situation and the long tubes are the way to go.

Let's talk about blower cars. If you have a centrifgual, that thing stuffs all kinds of air in at higher RPM, so unless you are looking for those last few HP, a longer tube is better to get more power before you start making a lot of boost.

The positive displacement blowers make tons of low end, but most of them stop breathing up high....a shorty is better here...

Where does the mid-length come in? A mid length is a decent comprimise between all of these. If you have nominal gearing, drive it on the street a lot but still run it at the track, the mid length is like a comprimise between the two.

In most cases I think a mid length works best for most people. If you have stock gearing and some more low end, but don't want to give up too much up high, a mid lenght is a good choice. If you are a pure street car with stock gears and are NA, then a long tube is better. If you are a pure strip car with steep gears and NA (like Kens) a shorty is better. If you are in between, then a mid-length gives you some of both.

Blower cars, IMO, are more cut and dry. Centrifigual guys should have a long tube or a mid length, positive displacement guys should be shorty or a mid length...

The final thought is that a mid length has very few O2 problems like a long tube does."

Courtesy of Modular Depot
http://forums.modulardepot.com/show...hlight=shorties
 

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kj_cinci said:
At MD there is two awesome writups from Jerry, objective (have no opinion, short, long, or mid) and I'll glue them in here below. For those of you that don't know Jerry is one of the minds behind, at and with SCT. He have seen all and any combination on the dyno and prolly 10's of 1000's of pulls!!! :tongue

Post 1:

"Here's my 2 cents on long tubes....

While most of the mod motor guys have gone long tube crazy, they really don't know why. They all "claim" that long tubes make more power. Make more power than what? Stock manifolds, sure, you bet. More power than shorties? Not a chance.

The length of a header tube is like an intake manifold runner length. The longer the runner the more low end torque, but less top end power. The shorter the tube the less low end torque, but you get more top end power.

Now, with a mod motor, that is displacement challenged and lacks low end, I'm not arguing that a long tube header is not a good thing. But, to tell someone that a long tube header makes more power is total BS and shows the writers ingnorance of internal combustion engines (and probably propagates internet myths as well). I'm not implying that Bill has done this at all, but there are people out there that do spread this falsehood.

Bottom line, with all else being equal, runner diameter and exhaust backpressure measured in the collector as well as equal lenght runners, a shorty will make more power than a longtube. Does this mean your car is going to be quicker with a shorty? Maybe, maybe not. Any real dragracer will tell you the first 60 ft or so has a HUGE impact on ET, more than adding a bunch of HP will (look at Kens car, he's a lot qucker than a lot of you blower guys, but makes less power, why? He has a good 60 ft time). So, if a long tube gets you more torque in this range, which then allows you to 60 ft better, the car will probably be quicker in the 1/4 mile.

If your a dyno queen and race numbers, and there are people out there that do, then put on a good shorty.

One thing not mentioned in this is the fact that keeping the O2 sensors warm is a big deal with long tubes. People have driveability problems since the sensors stay too cold. Some of this can be adjusted in the tuning/chip, some of it is controlled by the design.

Very few things are cut and dry, almost everything is a tradeoff..."

Post 2:


"A mid length is a decent comprimise of what I stated and what boss96 confirmed.

A long tube header is good for low-mid range torque, a shorty is good for mid-high RPM HP. On an NA car, if you are geared pretty steep (I'll use Ken's car as an example, he has 4.30 gears) then you spend so little time at low RPM, that, under drag racing conditions, you won't see much gain. If you have stock gearing in your car, 3.27 for the 99+ guys, then you spend a lot of time at lower RPM in a drag race situation and the long tubes are the way to go.

Let's talk about blower cars. If you have a centrifgual, that thing stuffs all kinds of air in at higher RPM, so unless you are looking for those last few HP, a longer tube is better to get more power before you start making a lot of boost.

The positive displacement blowers make tons of low end, but most of them stop breathing up high....a shorty is better here...

Where does the mid-length come in? A mid length is a decent comprimise between all of these. If you have nominal gearing, drive it on the street a lot but still run it at the track, the mid length is like a comprimise between the two.

In most cases I think a mid length works best for most people. If you have stock gearing and some more low end, but don't want to give up too much up high, a mid lenght is a good choice. If you are a pure street car with stock gears and are NA, then a long tube is better. If you are a pure strip car with steep gears and NA (like Kens) a shorty is better. If you are in between, then a mid-length gives you some of both.

Blower cars, IMO, are more cut and dry. Centrifigual guys should have a long tube or a mid length, positive displacement guys should be shorty or a mid length...

The final thought is that a mid length has very few O2 problems like a long tube does."

Courtesy of Modular Depot
http://forums.modulardepot.com/show...hlight=shorties
I supose that Racers have always used long tubes because runnign around circle tracks at 6500 RPM needs shortiesl, or maybe I am used to motors with more that 5.0L of displacement.

I do know one thing for sure, pressurised environments are different than vacuum. Physics applies, and this guy didnt mention anythign about why yoiu use a header anyways.

Though hey, what do I know... I only get paid to design Automotive parts and systems and have hourls in the lab doing experiments (not chassis Dyno Pulls). :rolleyes:
 

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Hi Kyle,

No myth involved. Once you get the plumbing after the collector too flow too much air you will start to lose HP, simple. At some point you can develop too strong a scavenging signal and will start to pull that fresh intake charge (that you worked so hard to pack in the cylinder), out the cylinder and down the exhaust ports and out the manifold, this hurts power and raises EGTs and this is bad.

This holds true for long tubes and short tubes but is more easily demonstrated with long tube headers because of their stronger scavenging signal at typical street engine crank speed limits. This has been shown over and over on dyno's everywhere and demonstrated in hot rod and engine building magazines since I can remember starting in the mid '60's. More recently it has been "rediscovered" by newer tuners of American iron in the last 15 years or so all over again with more magazine articles about this new "discovery" when performing engine dyno testing. Why do you think that so many engine builds shown in hot rod and engine building rags trying to build torque and higher HP always add exhaust tubes and very often a muffler to the ends of their headers on the engine under test? Simple, they can achive more torque and HP with additional tube length and mufflers especially if the primaries are a little large and the engine is a street engine with limited safe crank speeds.

I suppose some of this has to do with the fact than so many well intended but inexperienced tuners & builders that are buying headers and exhaust pipes these days think that bigger is better because the people marketing these products have to differenciate themselves somehow and bigger must be better thinking. Well it just isn't so as you know. Just like the intake side, in my experience velocity is king and well sized primary tube diam., length, collector diam. and collector length for the displacement and realistic RPM range of the engine is important if a header design is to realize the potential of even the compromise that is a street engine. There is always going to be a trade off being made for where the exhaust design will have the best effect and you want to try maximizing the gains in the RPM range you need to operate in while minmizing the compromise part of the curve outside the RPM range of operation.

I have to ask you this, but have you seen any pro class race car or motorcycle intake and exhaust manifolds in the last 30 years? Generally speaking high RPM engines have shorter exhaust manifolds and the slower they go the longer they get, EXACTLY like the intake side of the plumbing. For example, NHRA Pro class Top Fuel nitro dragsters and funnies all have large diam., long open pipes. These engines are all turning moderate RPM at the crank, actually LESS than a well built Ford 4-valve modular with head work, cams and springs. A Pro Stock drag bike with 4 cylinders has very short intake and exhaust primary tubes and they turn very high crank speeds, a LOT like modern F1 engines today. A typical F1 car has an engine that is turning 17,000-19,000RPM will also have very short intake tubes with as short an exhaust pipe as is possible with smallish tubes to keep velocity very high to maximize exhaust gas speeds and the suction that can be created on the underside of the car from the hot exhaust gases. The plumbing seems to work for the racers what makes you think the intake and exhaust plumbing is going to work different on the street?

But of course sometimes there are other factors involved (aren't there always?), such as the example of the '05 GT street car with a sports car oriented suspension setup. In this case lowered ride height all around is good for handling and grip but you need to compromise with your headers and cats or you will be black flaged and buying new parts on a regular basis. Here a set of shortys and highflow cats in the stock high position with a smooth run of tubing to the rear muffs is important to maximize ground clearance. In this example giving up 5 or 10rwhp is more than worth the trade off than giving up grip and speed through a corner.

Just my take on it.


Kyle F said:
Where did the myth of you need back pressure come from?

Its so not true... the best headers will scavage the exhaust out of the cylinder producing a suction on it and actually creating negative back pressure.

Why do you want to use the power being created by another cylinder to push the exhaust out? Let physics do its job and increase the effeciency of your engine. When a gas moves in a pressurized pulse, it leaves an area of low pressure behind it. Thus this is the reason a smaller primary tube works better on a N/A set up than a larger. It keeps a small enough volume to keep the high pressure pulse together where the larger volume will allow it to dissipate and not leave the low pressure behind it. Though if you are running forced induction, you can take advantage of larger diameter primaries.

This is what a "tuned' header does, and what equal lengths try to do. Shorties are just smoother than factory logs and present this principle slightly, but loose their effect very quickly in the RPM range. The stock S197 "Logs" are not that bad and is why you see minimal gains with shorties.

The exhaust system is a pressurised system, not a vacume like the intake. So dont let someone fool you with longer runners make more power down low and shorter ones make it up high. Simple fact is in a pressurised environment the rules change.

Simply stated Long Tubes are better for average torque and horsepower over the entire range. Not just peak at one point.

I am going to be getting a set of Kooks Long tubes soon for all the reasns listed above. I would be willing to do a Dyno run on shorties before I install my long tubes if anyone want a back to back comparrison on a dyno... all somone has to do is donate their choice pair to me for long enough to install, test, remove, and ship back.

We can compare graphs from 2000-6500 RPM on both.
 

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kj_cinci said:
I have and like the Kooks system allot, www.modulardepot.com have it on sale, dunno if AFM members still can get an additional discount...?!? (If your car is lowered keep in mind that the large high flow cats (if you get them) will be the lowest part under your car and maybe too low if you have bad roads.)
No clearance issues with the JBA Longtubes and Catted H-Pipe here. No O2 sensor issues either. I'm running on the canned C&L 93 Octane tune without any issues except a slipping clutch :sosad:

Underside Pic
 

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Hi thump,

I have questions and hope you answer! What tires did you use to get that 60' time and E.T.? What suspension changes did you do out back and what did you set your pinion angle to? Was the car full weight (what did the scales show?), and did you have any other engine stuff in for that run? I love to learn from what is obviously working.

Cheers


thump_rrr said:
No clearance issues with the JBA Longtubes and Catted H-Pipe here. No O2 sensor issues either. I'm running on the canned C&L 93 Octane tune without any issues except a slipping clutch :sosad:

Underside Pic
 

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SportsPix said:
Hi thump,

I have questions and hope you answer! What tires did you use to get that 60' time and E.T.? What suspension changes did you do out back and what did you set your pinion angle to? Was the car full weight (what did the scales show?), and did you have any other engine stuff in for that run? I love to learn from what is obviously working.

Cheers
I was running BFG Drag Radials 275/40 17

BFG Drag Radials

I was running full Steeda roadrace suspension. Sport Springs, Swaybars, Panhard Bar, Panhard Brace... Complete details of parts are on my cardomain page.

I was running the JBA Longtube Headers, JBA Catted H-Pipe and stock mufflers.
Steeda Underdrive Pulleys.
C&L Intake with the U7140 Diablosport Predator and the canned 93 Octane tune I downloaded off of the Diablosport website.

The car was running full weight with the exception of a spare tire.
The car has probably 20lbs. of dynamat extreme in it plus all of the extra weight for the Rear Shock Tower Brace, Strut Tower Brace, G-Trac Brace...

As for the pinion angle I just set the third link to the Steeda suggested length which I can't remember off the top of my head. It was in the instructions.

I didn't have my Steeda LCA's installed due to a bad bushing so I was on the factory LCA's.

My friend pulls 1.60's consistantly with an Eibach Pro Kit, M/T ET Streets 26X10.5-16, and 4.10 gears along with a Steeda intake and an O/R Prochamber and Magnapacks.

My goal is to keep the handling of the car way above a stock mustang so swaybar removal and soft springs and all the other drag suspension setup isn't for me.

My remaining upgrades will include LCA relocation brackets, 4.10 gears, aluminum flywheel with centerforce dual friction clutch, bmr K member and maybe an aluminum driveshaft. I should be ready for new drag tires by May and I'll be going to M/T ET Streets in 17" unless my budget permits a set of 16" Welds.

Just keep in mind we were running in 40F air which in some places is nearly impossible to get.
 
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