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Discussion Starter #1
Ok First anyone swapped upper control arm, Lower control arms, and Panhard rod? If so how much more hooking power did you get?

Already with my tune and CAi I cant hook on street tires. So... I got to thinking maybe instead of Long tubes and high flow cats... maybe my next mod should be suspension.

Lets see if I go through Spohn and get front and rear sways, LCA, Upper CA, and adjustable Panhard rod, then got me a set of sport lines... would I be faster in the 1/4 than with the long tubes.

Plus toss in the strut tower brace. I think I could do all of this close to the $1400, same as a nice complete set up of long tubes w/ catted mid pipe would run me?

I mean if it honeslty hooks up better?

The other option would be Long Tubes, Underdrive pulley, and Chrage motion plates
 

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Kyle F said:
Ok First anyone swapped upper control arm, Lower control arms, and Panhard rod? If so how much more hooking power did you get?

Already with my tune and CAi I cant hook on street tires. So... I got to thinking maybe instead of Long tubes and high flow cats... maybe my next mod should be suspension.

Lets see if I go through Spohn and get front and rear sways, LCA, Upper CA, and adjustable Panhard rod, then got me a set of sport lines... would I be faster in the 1/4 than with the long tubes.

Plus toss in the strut tower brace. I think I could do all of this close to the $1400, same as a nice complete set up of long tubes w/ catted mid pipe would run me?

I mean if it honeslty hooks up better?

The other option would be Long Tubes, Underdrive pulley, and Chrage motion plates
Well, I just put on some LCA's tonight and I am going to the track tomorrow. No other changes other than the LCA's and I removed the front sway bar. Going to the same track, I will compare 60' and let you know.

BTW, all the suspension mods sound great....but what about the tires?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Probably do wheels and tires in the future
 

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Kyle F said:
Ok First anyone swapped upper control arm, Lower control arms, and Panhard rod? If so how much more hooking power did you get?

Already with my tune and CAi I cant hook on street tires. So... I got to thinking maybe instead of Long tubes and high flow cats... maybe my next mod should be suspension.

Lets see if I go through Spohn and get front and rear sways, LCA, Upper CA, and adjustable Panhard rod, then got me a set of sport lines... would I be faster in the 1/4 than with the long tubes.

Plus toss in the strut tower brace. I think I could do all of this close to the $1400, same as a nice complete set up of long tubes w/ catted mid pipe would run me?

I mean if it honeslty hooks up better?

The other option would be Long Tubes, Underdrive pulley, and Chrage motion plates
While everyone was jumping at replacing the lca's I chose to install my uca first. I eliminated all my wheelhop with just the uca. I then installed the lca's a couple of weeks later and to be honest I didn't see any reduction in 60' times.

As a matter of fact my best 60' times were actually with my factory lca's in the car while the bushings in my Steeda lca's were being replaced (early production units).

If it's 1/4 mile times you're looking for the Longtubes and U/D Pulleys are the way to go. I don't like the charge motion delete plates because it slows down the velocity of the intake air at low rpm which will reduce torque.

Don't forget a good set of slicks or drag radials.
I was always saying I wanted to use street tires because I run with them on the street but street tires don't hook up as well on the track due to all the rubber.

Kyle stop living in denial. You'll end up buying everything sooner or later :tongue
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Probably true.

I may just get the upper control arm first and then o back to engine mods.

I like the Charge motion delete plates, from what I understand they are Wide Open above 2000rpm anyways. (so I have been told)
 

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Hi Kyle,

You can drop more E.T. and shave more off your 60' times with suspension and gear than motor mods for $1,500 on stock tires. Additionally the suspension hop ups will make your motor mods work better as you gain power and 15" or 16" drag wheels and slicks. This makes the most sense, why not optimize what you have to put down the power you have instead of adding weven more power that you acnnot get to the ground?

Use engineering and leverage to help you hook up better off the line using your stock springs. Look into fixed tubular LCAs, with an adjustable UCA. This gives you the ability to adjust your pinion angle without a chance of messing up your alignment. Also get a set of BMR weld-in LCA relocation brackets to increase the leverage your chassis can exert on your slicks at launch. The ability to adjust your IC (instant center), is important and gives you suspension tuning options you cannot get anyother way on a comfortable riding and still good handling street car.

Get adjustable struts and rear dampers to allow you to speed up the weight transfer to the rear axle. Softening up the front struts and slowing down the rear dampers, combined with the LCA relocation brackets you should be able to hook up no problem, even on a street tire.

For a N/A motor get a set of 4.10-4.30 gears or higher. If you drive it daily 3.90-4.10 is probably all you should use or you will be turning too many RPM at highway cruise speeds. This ALWAYS makes a car's 60' times better and improves your incrementals for the first half of the track.

Thumpers experience is going to prove to be the most common with the new chassis. The S197 3-link will gain much more axle control with reduced hop with the replacement of the UCA and going to a harder bushing or hiem joint than just replacing the LCAs. We used to rip out the welded-in Shelby traction bars on the old '64-'66 cars all the time even with reinforced floor plates and hiem joints. There is a LOT of load on the UCA and getting BMR's UCA mount welded-in is not a bad idea for a drag car on slicks. The rear LCAs are not going to do much except to better locate your axle better which is important but less so on a drage car than a road car. The Panhard bar is not going to make a differnce unless you are a sports car driver. As long as the adjustable Panhard bar you buy is stiff and has poly/poly/hiem bushings/joints you are in good shape. You will also need a HD Panhard bar brace to help distribute the PB bar loads into the chassis better if you get an stiff aftermarket adjustable Panhard bar.

The only pther thing to do is to disconnect the front anti-roll bar once you get to the drag strip.

To sum it up, BMR's weld-in LCA relocation brackets, fixed tubular LCAs, adjustable UCA, wide rage adjustable struts and rear dampers, adjustable Panhard bar and HD PB brace, 3.90-4.30 gears if N/A motor, disconnect front anti-roll bar and you are good to go. You should be able to get this stuff and install it yourself for $1,500 or so and you will hit harder at the line with what HP you have now AND later. Even on a stock motor you should shave better than 0.5 second off your 60' using just the power you have now.

HTH



Kyle F said:
Probably true.

I may just get the upper control arm first and then o back to engine mods.

I like the Charge motion delete plates, from what I understand they are Wide Open above 2000rpm anyways. (so I have been told)
 

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Well, you just answered all the questions I had bouncing around in my empty skull!!!

Thanks. :worship


SportsPix said:
Hi Kyle,

You can drop more E.T. and shave more off your 60' times with suspension and gear than motor mods for $1,500 on stock tires. Additionally the suspension hop ups will make your motor mods work better as you gain power and 15" or 16" drag wheels and slicks. This makes the most sense, why not optimize what you have to put down the power you have instead of adding weven more power that you acnnot get to the ground?

Use engineering and leverage to help you hook up better off the line using your stock springs. Look into fixed tubular LCAs, with an adjustable UCA. This gives you the ability to adjust your pinion angle without a chance of messing up your alignment. Also get a set of BMR weld-in LCA relocation brackets to increase the leverage your chassis can exert on your slicks at launch. The ability to adjust your IC (instant center), is important and gives you suspension tuning options you cannot get anyother way on a comfortable riding and still good handling street car.

Get adjustable struts and rear dampers to allow you to speed up the weight transfer to the rear axle. Softening up the front struts and slowing down the rear dampers, combined with the LCA relocation brackets you should be able to hook up no problem, even on a street tire.

For a N/A motor get a set of 4.10-4.30 gears or higher. If you drive it daily 3.90-4.10 is probably all you should use or you will be turning too many RPM at highway cruise speeds. This ALWAYS makes a car's 60' times better and improves your incrementals for the first half of the track.

Thumpers experience is going to prove to be the most common with the new chassis. The S197 3-link will gain much more axle control with reduced hop with the replacement of the UCA and going to a harder bushing or hiem joint than just replacing the LCAs. We used to rip out the welded-in Shelby traction bars on the old '64-'66 cars all the time even with reinforced floor plates and hiem joints. There is a LOT of load on the UCA and getting BMR's UCA mount welded-in is not a bad idea for a drag car on slicks. The rear LCAs are not going to do much except to better locate your axle better which is important but less so on a drage car than a road car. The Panhard bar is not going to make a differnce unless you are a sports car driver. As long as the adjustable Panhard bar you buy is stiff and has poly/poly/hiem bushings/joints you are in good shape. You will also need a HD Panhard bar brace to help distribute the PB bar loads into the chassis better if you get an stiff aftermarket adjustable Panhard bar.

The only pther thing to do is to disconnect the front anti-roll bar once you get to the drag strip.

To sum it up, BMR's weld-in LCA relocation brackets, fixed tubular LCAs, adjustable UCA, wide rage adjustable struts and rear dampers, adjustable Panhard bar and HD PB brace, 3.90-4.30 gears if N/A motor, disconnect front anti-roll bar and you are good to go. You should be able to get this stuff and install it yourself for $1,500 or so and you will hit harder at the line with what HP you have now AND later. Even on a stock motor you should shave better than 0.5 second off your 60' using just the power you have now.

HTH
 

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thump_rrr said:
While everyone was jumping at replacing the lca's I chose to install my uca first. I eliminated all my wheelhop with just the uca. I then installed the lca's a couple of weeks later and to be honest I didn't see any reduction in 60' times.

As a matter of fact my best 60' times were actually with my factory lca's in the car while the bushings in my Steeda lca's were being replaced (early production units).

If it's 1/4 mile times you're looking for the Longtubes and U/D Pulleys are the way to go. I don't like the charge motion delete plates because it slows down the velocity of the intake air at low rpm which will reduce torque.

Don't forget a good set of slicks or drag radials.
I was always saying I wanted to use street tires because I run with them on the street but street tires don't hook up as well on the track due to all the rubber.
Well, you guys were correct. Before I installed my LCA's, I made six passes, two had wheel hop since going to the 125 hp setting. Last weekend, after installing the new LCA's, I made 7 passes, no wheel hop on any of them. However, I still did not better my 60'. Best remains a 1.673 at Irwindale, and 1.789 at LACR.

Sports Pix, a quick comment and a question. My comment is I agree with you on everything except the tires. I have been able to do a 1.673 60' with completely stock suspension, 4.10's, DR's, and the spray. On street tire I was just spinning through 1-3.

Now my question since its obvious to me you have vast knowledge on suspension setup (you too thump_rrr): going to take thump_rrr's advice and get an UCA. How do you adjust instant center? You do that by changing pinon angle, right? So how do you do that? Small steps and alot of testing, or has someone already figured out about the right angle to start.....just confused on that part....
 

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I just installed the LCAs and UCA with the braces from Powerhouse. I have only driven on the street with street tires and I can notice a diff allready! Can't wait for the track to open! :kooky:

I'll check my pinion angle tomali, it is set after the guys running single digits recommendations.... just can't remember right now... :tongue

I also installed the TQ brace and an alu DS... it feels REAL nice! Much better feel for the car, quicker revs, etc... fun fun!
 

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Hi psfracer,

I'm thinking that you should be able to get your 60' down in the 1.5-1.6 range, no spray, all motor with suspension and gears as posted. It depends on temps and track prep of course but with slicks maybe another 1/10 or maybe even a little bit more. Imagine dropping another tenth or two, you'd be in the fun zone and correct out to just a hair this side of driving an 11 second car. That's pretty quick for a basically stock 3,600lb. car. I remember back in the late '60's and early '70's that it took a lot of motor to go 11's because we didn't have the tires or suspension that we have today.

What size rear wheels and tires are you running if I might ask. Your signature says M&H radials, what size? What tire pressures did you run? How was your track prepped? Do you heat them up or drive around the water box? What N2O system are you using? I'm assumming a wet system, can you add a staged controller or a controller with an RPM sensor or timer to your system, this will help you laungh better even on the bottle. Just curious about what people are doing.

I don't have a vast knowledge of suspension. I understand the basics of suspension geometry theory and can visualize the imaginary suspension points, lines and the important intersections in my head while laying about under the car. Then I apply it by going out and finding parts that will do what I think I needs doing for the application. I also practice thinking about what is affected by changing pick up point locations on the chassis, control arms and axle of the car and how I can improve the chassis in the most elegant way (simply, adding least weight while being most effective). I spend a lot of time thinking about suspension while laying under my car and sipping cold ones through my kid's bendy straws. I'm really a road course kid of guy though I like the challenge of the drag strip a lot.

Anyway, you can't change IC with an adjustable UCA in this car, this is only going to help you get the pinion angle closer to the optimum angle. You need to change the angle of the LCA and/or the UCA to alter IC. Effectively this means that you need to change where the UCA and LCAs mount to the chassis and axle respectively. That's why I recommended BMR's weld-in LCA brackets and possibly BMR's UCA mount. Both of these brackets are designed to offer you tuning options to alter your IC by choosing a different mounting point than the stock brackets' single locations can offer.


Cheers


psfracer said:
<<SNIPPED>>
Sports Pix, a quick comment and a question. My comment is I agree with you on everything except the tires. I have been able to do a 1.673 60' with completely stock suspension, 4.10's, DR's, and the spray. On street tire I was just spinning through 1-3.

Now my question since its obvious to me you have vast knowledge on suspension setup (you too thump_rrr): going to take thump_rrr's advice and get an UCA. How do you adjust instant center? You do that by changing pinon angle, right? So how do you do that? Small steps and alot of testing, or has someone already figured out about the right angle to start.....just confused on that part....
 

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I run 275/50/17 M&H drag radials, last time to the track I experimented with 13, 14, 15 psi. I tried both going around water box and heating them up. Heating them up definitely got better results. The 1/8 mile track I run at has some of the best track prep there is...ergo the 1.673 60'. But I am trying to get the same results when so-so track prep is encountered, and at LACR I am more than 1/10 slower. N20 system is a zex, with tps activation at WOT, right out of the hole.

Ok, so I went to the BMR website, I think I have a better understanding now...but one question still remains...if I get the adjustable UCA, how to adjust? How would you know? Trial and error at the track?
 

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What do the Upper and lower control arms actually do? I'm not very familiar with them. Where are they installed? Also are they easy to install?
 

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KJ,

Not to be a butt-insky, but I think I heard them say -2 degrees? Not sure but I think that is what they said.

BC



kj_cinci said:
I just installed the LCAs and UCA with the braces from Powerhouse. I have only driven on the street with street tires and I can notice a diff allready! Can't wait for the track to open! :kooky:

I'll check my pinion angle tomali, it is set after the guys running single digits recommendations.... just can't remember right now... :tongue

I also installed the TQ brace and an alu DS... it feels REAL nice! Much better feel for the car, quicker revs, etc... fun fun!
 

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Ben, I think so too...

It all really makes a diff! The car set-up is SO crisp, hmm...?? yea, that's the best word for it... It's like the throttle controls the rear wheels, no lag, no give, it revs quicker and the car stays steady, from a stand still it 'jumps' already with my AS street tires! I can't wait to try it on the track with the MTs!

As I mentioned I don't know what's from what... The LCAs and UCA have taken away ANY hesitation, no bouncing, just kneel and GO, grant it a bit nursed to WOT with street tires on salty roads, but wow is there a diff! I'm happy too to have my rear end aligned with the adj panhard bar! I also think that TQ brace make a huge diff, no steering wheel input is needed at WOT goes, not even while spinning!
 

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psfracer said:
Well, you guys were correct. Before I installed my LCA's, I made six passes, two had wheel hop since going to the 125 hp setting. Last weekend, after installing the new LCA's, I made 7 passes, no wheel hop on any of them. However, I still did not better my 60'. Best remains a 1.673 at Irwindale, and 1.789 at LACR.

Sports Pix, a quick comment and a question. My comment is I agree with you on everything except the tires. I have been able to do a 1.673 60' with completely stock suspension, 4.10's, DR's, and the spray. On street tire I was just spinning through 1-3.

Now my question since its obvious to me you have vast knowledge on suspension setup (you too thump_rrr): going to take thump_rrr's advice and get an UCA. How do you adjust instant center? You do that by changing pinon angle, right? So how do you do that? Small steps and alot of testing, or has someone already figured out about the right angle to start.....just confused on that part....
The instant center is changed by relocating the lower control arms so that the rear axle provides more leverage. The BMR control arm relocation kit is the way to go. Please note that it is recommended to have a welded in set if 60' times of 1.5 sec. or less will be achieved. As for the pinion angle Steeda provided a recommended UCA Length for use with their suspension setup. It gave me a -1.5 degree angle.
 

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Pinion Angle

How do you tell what your pinion angle is set at? I understand the idea of the
adjustable UCA. Is the pinion angle something you can set at home in your garage? Or is this something best left to a shop? installing would not be a problem, but I worry about setting the pinion angle.
 

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MN. SCOOTER said:
How do you tell what your pinion angle is set at? I understand the idea of the
adjustable UCA. Is the pinion angle something you can set at home in your garage? Or is this something best left to a shop? installing would not be a problem, but I worry about setting the pinion angle.
See post #15
 

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kj_cinci said:
Ben, I think so too...

It all really makes a diff! The car set-up is SO crisp, hmm...?? yea, that's the best word for it... It's like the throttle controls the rear wheels, no lag, no give, it revs quicker and the car stays steady, from a stand still it 'jumps' already with my AS street tires! I can't wait to try it on the track with the MTs!

As I mentioned I don't know what's from what... The LCAs and UCA have taken away ANY hesitation, no bouncing, just kneel and GO, grant it a bit nursed to WOT with street tires on salty roads, but wow is there a diff! I'm happy too to have my rear end aligned with the adj panhard bar! I also think that TQ brace make a huge diff, no steering wheel input is needed at WOT goes, not even while spinning!
KJ,
would you mind sharing a link to that TQ brace? Also, just curious, but the mods you've done are UCA, LCA, a TQ brace, and a panhard bar? Thanks.
Jeff
 

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Preacher said:
KJ,
would you mind sharing a link to that TQ brace? Also, just curious, but the mods you've done are UCA, LCA, a TQ brace, and a panhard bar? Thanks.
Jeff
Jeff,

Yes, those are the parts I installed last week, CA's also have sturdier brackets with them. I installed this at the same time as an 4" alu DS and a DS loop. It is all from www.powerhouse411.com

The pieces look real good and the result is WAY above my expectations, honestly I was a bit scheptical but am now VERY happy and impressed! It is a pretty staiight fwd install but the pieces are a VERY snugg fit so it takes some time... But snugg is good in this case!

PS. I already had Eibach's Pro Springs and Anti Roll Kit....
 
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