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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
I've got a 1993 GT 5-spd with ~133K miles. The motor is stock and original save for a CAI.

When I purchased it a few years ago it has 122K mi and wasn't consuming any more than about 0.5 qt of oil for the first 4-5K. The car was down on power though and had a semi-poor idle. Over the past couple years the relevant things I've done are:
  • Plugs, wires, rotors & cap, ignition coil
  • Seafoam through the intake & crankcase for ~200mi, short oil change intervals, fuel injector cleaner
  • PCV valve/screen/hose
  • Timing chain
  • Front & Rear main seal
  • All new vacuum-lines (silicone)
  • 93 octane & timing @ 13 degrees,
  • 70mm throttle body, IAC, TPS,
  • O2 sensors, cleaned the MAF & EGR
  • Base idle reset.

When the motor is running right, it runs Really well (for a stock motor). It idles well, starts right up, is responsive, and makes good power. However, the motor has steadily been consuming more oil. I run 5W-30 high mileage and an FL-1A and it was consuming about 1QT every 4K and now it's up to about 1QT every 400mi. The only evidence of oil burning I see on the spark plugs is the #8 cylinder. It gets oil on the spark plug threads and the plug itself gets oil fouled and you can see evidence of oil on the piston crown. It originally seemed to be most noticeable on overrun/deceleration, but now I'm either running hog rich or burning some oil when I romp on it or pull away after idling for a couple of minutes. My mileage is down about 2mpg over where it had been (18 vs 20mpg).

  • I've done a vacuum test and that came back fine.
  • I've checked the PCV valve and it rattles, the screen is clear, and I've replaced this entire assembly in the last 2 years.
  • I've made sure there is a vacuum at the breather hose.
  • Performed KOEO and KOER and pull no codes.
  • I used a boroscope and you can see the cross-hatch honing marks in all the cylinders with 7 cylinders dry with minimal carbon build up and then #8 which has pronounced oil in the center of the piston with piston wash on the outer 1/4"-1/2". Compare #8 vs #7 (attached).
  • I did a compression test with the motor at operating temperature and all 8 cylinders were between 158-162 PSI.
  • I did a leak down test (with the motor totally cold unfortunately) and had between 9-13% on all 8, with most having 11% including #8. The majority of the air is leaking into the crankcase (coming out the dipstick and/or oil filler neck) but if you put your hand over the filler neck, you can hear some air coming out of the throttle body on #8.

When I pulled the rocker cover on the driver's side, there is no sludge and just (what I would consider) a normal amount of varnish given the age and mileage. There is oil sitting in the rocker arms as well as in a few low spots around the cylinder head.

My best guess is still worn out valve stem guides so I've proceeded with that. Any other ideas of what it could be? Am I missing something? I expected a noticeably higher leakage on the #8 cylinder. I didn't see any foreign material in the oil return galley next to #8 but I can't see down very far.

Also, what part number do you use for the valve stem seals? I originally got the Edelbrock 9758's because Amazon said they fit but they most certainly do not. They don't even match the measurements stated on the box. Best I can tell, the Fel-Pro SS72683 are the correct size and the proper Viton material. Any ideas here?

P.S. I do know that I need to do the fuel pump as it's getting quite whiney, but my fuel pressure numbers were fine when I tested them.

Update 2016-07-10
This past winter I completed the list of items below and then drove another 1000 mi this spring. Alas, I am still consuming oil at around a quart every 300-400mi and #8 is the only one showing evidence of oil in the cylinder. When replacing the valve stem seals, not a single valve rocked around in it's guide or felt "egged out". Is it possible for a single worn guide with fresh seals - one that isn't worn enough to feel egged out - to single handedly consume 1qt/300mi? It still seems most noticeable after decelerating with higher RPMs (i.e. high vacuum) or after idling for awhile. Once underway or repeated WOT acceleration doesn't give any bluish smoke or smell. My next guess is going to be to install a catch can. If that doesn't turn up the oil, then I'm out of ideas and I'm going to have to pull the heads next winter.

  • Replaced all the valve stem seals
  • Cleaned up all the rocker arms, fulcrums, valve springs, and upper intake manifold
  • Replaced all the pushrods (several were pitted)
  • Replaced the fuel tank/sending unit/fuel pump
  • Replaced all the spark plugs
  • Checked timing and reset base idle
  • Checked vacuum and fuel pressure readings
  • Verified correct functioning of PCV valve
 

Attachments

Yeah, you have a worn valve guide there. New seals will buy you some time, but a worn out guide is a worn out guide.
 
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Discussion starter · #4 ·
Thanks! I've got to go pick up the Fel-Pro seals tomorrow to see if they fit and then I'll finish the job. I hope valve stem seals are enough to at least buy me a year or two until I finish the work on the chassis/suspension/brakes and start work on the engine. I'll report back after I've completed to on whether it's helped/solved my issue. The lack of marked difference on #8 in the leakdown test is what really has my head scratching.
 
Thanks! I've got to go pick up the Fel-Pro seals tomorrow to see if they fit and then I'll finish the job. I hope valve stem seals are enough to at least buy me a year or two until I finish the work on the chassis/suspension/brakes and start work on the engine. I'll report back after I've completed to on whether it's helped/solved my issue. The lack of marked difference on #8 in the leakdown test is what really has my head scratching.
The piston rings and valves can still do a good job of sealing in your compression even if the guides are worn.
 
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Discussion starter · #6 ·
The piston rings and valves can still do a good job of sealing in your compression even if the guides are worn.
Agreed. I would have expected to notice some movement in either of the valves in their guides on the #8 when I replaced the valve stem seals. I didn't observe any, which gives me pause over that being the cause, particularly when only a single cylinder is showing any symptoms but the level of consumption is so high.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Update 2016-07-10

This past winter I completed the list of items below and then drove another 1000 mi this spring. Alas, I am still consuming oil at around a quart every 300-400mi and #8 is the only one showing evidence of oil in the cylinder. When replacing the valve stem seals, not a single valve rocked around in it's guide or felt "egged out". Is it possible for a single worn guide with fresh seals - one that isn't worn enough to feel egged out - to single handedly consume 1qt/300mi? It still seems most noticeable after decelerating with higher RPMs (i.e. high vacuum) or after idling for awhile. Once underway or repeated WOT acceleration doesn't give any bluish smoke or smell. My next guess is going to be to install a catch can. If that doesn't turn up the oil, then I'm out of ideas and I'm going to have to pull the heads next winter.

  • Replaced all the valve stem seals
  • Cleaned up all the rocker arms, fulcrums, valve springs, and upper intake manifold
  • Replaced all the pushrods (several were pitted)
  • Replaced the fuel tank/sending unit/fuel pump
  • Replaced all the spark plugs
  • Checked timing and reset base idle
  • Checked vacuum and fuel pressure readings
  • Verified correct functioning of PCV valve
 
This past winter I completed the list of items below and then drove another 1000 mi this spring. Alas, I am still consuming oil at around a quart every 300-400mi and #8 is the only one showing evidence of oil in the cylinder. When replacing the valve stem seals, not a single valve rocked around in it's guide or felt "egged out". Is it possible for a single worn guide with fresh seals - one that isn't worn enough to feel egged out - to single handedly consume 1qt/300mi? It still seems most noticeable after decelerating with higher RPMs (i.e. high vacuum) or after idling for awhile. Once underway or repeated WOT acceleration doesn't give any bluish smoke or smell. My next guess is going to be to install a catch can. If that doesn't turn up the oil, then I'm out of ideas and I'm going to have to pull the heads next winter.

  • Replaced all the valve stem seals
  • Cleaned up all the rocker arms, fulcrums, valve springs, and upper intake manifold
  • Replaced all the pushrods (several were pitted)
  • Replaced the fuel tank/sending unit/fuel pump
  • Replaced all the spark plugs
  • Checked timing and reset base idle
  • Checked vacuum and fuel pressure readings
  • Verified correct functioning of PCV valve
If it makes you feel any better, mine burns a quart every 250mi. My valve guides are shot and I haven't bothered with the catch can on the PCV. If you already replaced the seals, go with the catch can; even if that's not where all of your oil is going it should help.
 
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I've got a 1993 GT 5-spd with ~133K miles. The motor is stock and original save for a CAI.

When I purchased it a few years ago it has 122K mi and wasn't consuming any more than about 0.5 qt of oil for the first 4-5K. The car was down on power though and had a semi-poor idle. Over the past couple years the relevant things I've done are:
  • Plugs, wires, rotors & cap, ignition coil
  • Seafoam through the intake & crankcase for ~200mi, short oil change intervals, fuel injector cleaner
  • PCV valve/screen/hose
  • Timing chain
  • Front & Rear main seal
  • All new vacuum-lines (silicone)
  • 93 octane & timing @ 13 degrees,
  • 70mm throttle body, IAC, TPS,
  • O2 sensors, cleaned the MAF & EGR
  • Base idle reset.

When the motor is running right, it runs Really well (for a stock motor). It idles well, starts right up, is responsive, and makes good power. However, the motor has steadily been consuming more oil. I run 5W-30 high mileage and an FL-1A and it was consuming about 1QT every 4K and now it's up to about 1QT every 400mi. The only evidence of oil burning I see on the spark plugs is the #8 cylinder. It gets oil on the spark plug threads and the plug itself gets oil fouled and you can see evidence of oil on the piston crown. It originally seemed to be most noticeable on overrun/deceleration, but now I'm either running hog rich or burning some oil when I romp on it or pull away after idling for a couple of minutes. My mileage is down about 2mpg over where it had been (18 vs 20mpg).

  • I've done a vacuum test and that came back fine.
  • I've checked the PCV valve and it rattles, the screen is clear, and I've replaced this entire assembly in the last 2 years.
  • I've made sure there is a vacuum at the breather hose.
  • Performed KOEO and KOER and pull no codes.
  • I used a boroscope and you can see the cross-hatch honing marks in all the cylinders with 7 cylinders dry with minimal carbon build up and then #8 which has pronounced oil in the center of the piston with piston wash on the outer 1/4"-1/2". Compare #8 vs #7 (attached).
  • I did a compression test with the motor at operating temperature and all 8 cylinders were between 158-162 PSI.
  • I did a leak down test (with the motor totally cold unfortunately) and had between 9-13% on all 8, with most having 11% including #8. The majority of the air is leaking into the crankcase (coming out the dipstick and/or oil filler neck) but if you put your hand over the filler neck, you can hear some air coming out of the throttle body on #8.

When I pulled the rocker cover on the driver's side, there is no sludge and just (what I would consider) a normal amount of varnish given the age and mileage. There is oil sitting in the rocker arms as well as in a few low spots around the cylinder head.

My best guess is still worn out valve stem guides so I've proceeded with that. Any other ideas of what it could be? Am I missing something? I expected a noticeably higher leakage on the #8 cylinder. I didn't see any foreign material in the oil return galley next to #8 but I can't see down very far.

Also, what part number do you use for the valve stem seals? I originally got the Edelbrock 9758's because Amazon said they fit but they most certainly do not. They don't even match the measurements stated on the box. Best I can tell, the Fel-Pro SS72683 are the correct size and the proper Viton material. Any ideas here?

P.S. I do know that I need to do the fuel pump as it's getting quite whiney, but my fuel pressure numbers were fine when I tested them.

Update 2016-07-10
This past winter I completed the list of items below and then drove another 1000 mi this spring. Alas, I am still consuming oil at around a quart every 300-400mi and #8 is the only one showing evidence of oil in the cylinder. When replacing the valve stem seals, not a single valve rocked around in it's guide or felt "egged out". Is it possible for a single worn guide with fresh seals - one that isn't worn enough to feel egged out - to single handedly consume 1qt/300mi? It still seems most noticeable after decelerating with higher RPMs (i.e. high vacuum) or after idling for awhile. Once underway or repeated WOT acceleration doesn't give any bluish smoke or smell. My next guess is going to be to install a catch can. If that doesn't turn up the oil, then I'm out of ideas and I'm going to have to pull the heads next winter.

  • Replaced all the valve stem seals
  • Cleaned up all the rocker arms, fulcrums, valve springs, and upper intake manifold
  • Replaced all the pushrods (several were pitted)
  • Replaced the fuel tank/sending unit/fuel pump
  • Replaced all the spark plugs
  • Checked timing and reset base idle
  • Checked vacuum and fuel pressure readings
  • Verified correct functioning of PCV valve

My engine started blowing oil when it reached around 110k.
I started running 20w-50 and it burned significantly less oil.
Personally I don't like it when my engine burns oil so I rebuilt it
and still use 20w-50 with great results. I think these high mileage
oils are pretty much useless on a worn engine. 5w-30 oil is a light
engine oil and might work on a tight tolerance engine but not a worn
5.0L. Besides the only difference between a high mileage oil and
less say a standard motor oil is the zinc and phosphorus content to
lessen further engine wear.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
My engine started blowing oil when it reached around 110k.
I started running 20w-50 and it burned significantly less oil.
Personally I don't like it when my engine burns oil so I rebuilt it
and still use 20w-50 with great results. I think these high mileage
oils are pretty much useless on a worn engine. 5w-30 oil is a light
engine oil and might work on a tight tolerance engine but not a worn
5.0L. Besides the only difference between a high mileage oil and
less say a standard motor oil is the zinc and phosphorus content to
lessen further engine wear.
I switched to 5W-40 yesterday and in a couple of weeks I'll install a catch can. Hopefully, this will reduce the consumption enough to get me the couple of years until I've finished the chassis/suspension/brakes and I'm ready to rebuild the motor. Did you 0.030 over your block and just put in new pistons or did you polish the crank and change the bearings or go full new rotating assembly?
 
I switched to 5W-40 yesterday and in a couple of weeks I'll install a catch can. Hopefully, this will reduce the consumption enough to get me the couple of years until I've finished the chassis/suspension/brakes and I'm ready to rebuild the motor. Did you 0.030 over your block and just put in new pistons or did you polish the crank and change the bearings or go full new rotating assembly?

The block was bored .030 over new forged pistons.
The block was also line bored but the crank and rods
were checked and reused. Of course new bearings both
crank and cam. The engine has close to 80k on it now
and it burns little to no oil. And like I said I run 20w-50.
I also don't beat on it too much.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
The block was bored .030 over new forged pistons.
The block was also line bored but the crank and rods
were checked and reused. Of course new bearings both
crank and cam. The engine has close to 80k on it now
and it burns little to no oil. And like I said I run 20w-50.
I also don't beat on it too much.
Awesome! I'm debating getting a second block and building that motor up to minimize downtime and let me take my time. What did the machine work cost you if you don't mind me asking? I know that it varies by region but I haven't even begun to look into what it would cost to to get a machine shop flux/bore/line bore/install bearings.
 
Awesome! I'm debating getting a second block and building that motor up to minimize downtime and let me take my time. What did the machine work cost you if you don't mind me asking? I know that it varies by region but I haven't even begun to look into what it would cost to to get a machine shop flux/bore/line bore/install bearings.

I think I paid $300 but that was aprox 6 years ago I am sure it
is more today. Remember to ask them if they use torque plates
when they do the boring. If torque plates are used you get much
more accurate results,better ring seal and all around better
cylinder roundness when you install the heads.
 
It could be your compression rings are fine but your oil ring is not. If your constantly using oil and your plug is fouled, you are burning oil - whether you see the blue or not it's there. Valve guides and seals will burn oil when you first start it and then clear up as the oil leaks down the valve stem at rest. If you rebuilt your motor and honed or bored it out everything should seal and there is no need to run a higher viscosity oil - 20w50 gets up into your motor slower at startup and may not oil properly at operating temperature leading to faster wear and potentially engine failure at high RPM. Just run a high quality oil at the recommended viscosity and carry on. Try running a slightly hotter plug on no. 8 for now - that will keep it clearer longer.
 
It could be your compression rings are fine but your oil ring is not. If your constantly using oil and your plug is fouled, you are burning oil - whether you see the blue or not it's there. Valve guides and seals will burn oil when you first start it and then clear up as the oil leaks down the valve stem at rest. If you rebuilt your motor and honed or bored it out everything should seal and there is no need to run a higher viscosity oil - 20w50 gets up into your motor slower at startup and may not oil properly at operating temperature leading to faster wear and potentially engine failure at high RPM. Just run a high quality oil at the recommended viscosity and carry on. Try running a slightly hotter plug on no. 8 for now - that will keep it clearer longer.
A 20W50 oil flows like a SAE 20 oil during a cold start up.
I haven't seen any problem with lack of flow at start up. I have
been running it for 80k miles and the engine does't blow any
oil and it also runs a little cooler too. Personally I would't use
an oil any lighter than SAE 40.
 
A 20W50 oil flows like a SAE 20 oil during a cold start up.
I haven't seen any problem with lack of flow at start up. I have
been running it for 80k miles and the engine does't blow any
oil and it also runs a little cooler too. Personally I would't use
an oil any lighter than SAE 40.
I agree 100% with you on the oil, I also use the 20W50 and have for many years in many cars with great results
 
Dang it. The oil junky side of me wants to totally unleash on you guys, but experience tells me that you can't teach an old(or stubborn) dog new tricks. I guess I'm gonna be a little fairy boy and sit this one out. Bummer.
 
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If your using 20w50 rather than a 5w30 or (10w30) you are robbing your engine of power for one thing and second, you obviously don't trust your 5w30 brand. It takes a lot more power to move a 20w50 through your motor than a 5w30. Try using Amsoil signature series 5w30 and tell me what you think. Your 20w50 is also getting chopped up by your valve train and probably isn't a 20w50 but a 20w40 now. Try the AMS and also put their full synthetic multi veh ATF in the trans - it will shift so much better and run cooler.
 
If your using 20w50 rather than a 5w30 or (10w30) you are robbing your engine of power for one thing and second, you obviously don't trust your 5w30 brand. It takes a lot more power to move a 20w50 through your motor than a 5w30. Try using Amsoil signature series 5w30 and tell me what you think. Your 20w50 is also getting chopped up by your valve train and probably isn't a 20w50 but a 20w40 now. Try the AMS and also put their full synthetic multi veh ATF in the trans - it will shift so much better and run cooler.
See post #17. I tried to warn you; brace yourself....
 
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Dang it. The oil junky side of me wants to totally unleash on you guys, but experience tells me that you can't teach an old(or stubborn) dog new tricks. I guess I'm gonna be a little fairy boy and sit this one out. Bummer.
I am fully aware of the loss due to a heavier viscosity oil.
The amount of loss is minimal as far as I am concerned. I
also understand the dynamics of using the proper viscosity
oil. But let's face it I am not driving a dragster. If you consider
the film thickness of a heavier viscosity oil and the film thickness
of a lighter oil the lack of protection at start up is of no concern.
to me.
A heavier oil will also will dissipate more heat than a lighter
oil. Engine tolerances play large roll in choosing an oil. A tight
tolerance engine would require a lighter oil like in today's engines
but a engine design of 50 or more years ago a light oil doesn't
cut it. The oil pressure will also be lower with a lighter oil. But
go for it convince me that running a 20w 50 oil is hurting my engine
I love a good oil debate.
 
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