Hi guys (and gals), My 289 runs great with one minor (I hope) glitch. After it's been running for awhile and warms up if I turn it off then try to start it again it tries to start ie: turns over strong, but it gets to the starting point it won't go the distance and start. Eventually it starts but it's embarrasing sitting in public in a nice car that won't start. Any suggestions? My first thought was the fuel pump but now I'm thinking it could be the starter? Any thoughts anyone? Thanks Steve
1966 Mustang 289 has a hard time starting when hot?
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Hi guys (and gals), My 289 runs great with one minor (I hope) glitch. After it's been running for awhile and warms up if I turn it off then try to start it again it tries to start ie: turns over strong, but it gets to the starting point it won't go the distance and start. Eventually it starts but it's embarrasing sitting in public in a nice car that won't start. Any suggestions? My first thought was the fuel pump but now I'm thinking it could be the starter? Any thoughts anyone? Thanks Steve
Hello.
My first guess would be the coil breaking down.A coil that isn't dead but is mortally wounded will cause a car to do that before it finally gives up the ghost.It could be any one of a number of things, but that would be my first guess. It could also be trying to vapor-lock on you.It is definitely not the starter if it's cranking strong. That's all that the starter is supposed to do.Make it crank strong.:gringreen Hope that helps.
My first guess would be the coil breaking down.A coil that isn't dead but is mortally wounded will cause a car to do that before it finally gives up the ghost.It could be any one of a number of things, but that would be my first guess. It could also be trying to vapor-lock on you.It is definitely not the starter if it's cranking strong. That's all that the starter is supposed to do.Make it crank strong.:gringreen Hope that helps.
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Spacer
Veronica was right on that its not the starter.
COULD be a coil, though that would not usually depend on heat to cause slow starts. Checking timing is always a good idea.
You might consider changing to a cooler thermostat.
The spacer is a good idea - you are probably boiling the fuel from heat transferred to the carb from the intake.
Veronica was right on that its not the starter.
COULD be a coil, though that would not usually depend on heat to cause slow starts. Checking timing is always a good idea.
You might consider changing to a cooler thermostat.
Hi again. It probably isn't the timing too far advanced. When that's the case the car will crank slower than it does cold, but, it's always a good idea to check the timimg on a fairly regular basis. Yours should be set at something like 9 degrees BTDC. On the phenolic spacer thing, I've never really been a big fan of that because it's treating symptoms instead of solving problems. Your car didn't do that hard starting thing when it was new and it also didn't have a phenolic spacer. Vapor lock is normally the result of a combination of two things.The car running a little hotter than it's supposed to and an incorrectly routed fuel line. What the spacer does is insulate the carb from the excessive heat accumulating in the intake, which, in conjunction with the pre-heated fuel caused by the fuel line leaning on the thermostat housing or something, that is pushing it over the edge and causing the vapor lock. If it turns out that vapor lock is actually what's going on you might want to consider flushing the cooling system, going with a 160 thermostat and making sure that your fuel line isn't leaning on anything. If you get the car to where it's operating within the originally intended temperature range that should solve the vapor lock thing. Good luck.
It probably isn't the timing too far advanced. When that's the case the car will crank slower than it does cold, but, it's always a good idea to check the timimg on a fairly regular basis. Yours should be set at something like 9 degrees BTDC. On the phenolic spacer thing, I've never really been a big fan of that because it's treating symptoms instead of solving problems. Your car didn't do that hard starting thing when it was new and it also didn't have a phenolic spacer. Vapor lock is normally the result of a combination of two things.The car running a little hotter than it's supposed to and an incorrectly routed fuel line. What the spacer does is insulate the carb from the excessive heat accumulating in the intake, which, in conjunction with the pre-heated fuel caused by the fuel line leaning on the thermostat housing or something, that is pushing it over the edge and causing the vapor lock. If it turns out that vapor lock is actually what's going on you might want to consider flushing the cooling system, going with a 160 thermostat and making sure that your fuel line isn't leaning on anything. If you get the car to where it's operating within the originally intended temperature range that should solve the vapor lock thing. Good luck.You guys are great! I have my work cut out for me today. This problem will be resolved one way or another. Thanks for all your input. It's appreciated. I'll let you know the outcome once the doc returns from surgery ! Steve
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Vapor
Having owned one of these cars back in the 60's, I can say with authority that vapor lock was a common problem - whether new or used. Of course, back then there were all sorts of attempts at solving the problem that included logical steps (isolating the intake from the carburetor with several extra gaskets would work up until they broke apart and started leaking) and illogical gimmicks (at the time someone made a lot of money with shiney little strips of aluminum foil you taped to your fuel lines).
The reason for dozens of earnest and rip-off solutions to vapor lock was because it was distressingly common. particularly with higher performance motors operating in the South.
The spacer can also act to enlarge the intake plenum a bit, yielding some advantages in that area, depending on carburetor and cam selection.
If the primary goal is to keep it all original, by all means, its perfectly possible to avoid adding non-OE items like spacers. But some of these cars were prone to ocassional vapor lock from the word go. I owned one, and the dealer and I went round and round with it for a year, until it was out of warranty. When I sold it 5 years later, and in spite of a larger radiator and cooler thermostat (neither of which stock OE, of course) it would still ocassionally turn the carburetor into a heat sink and be hard to crank.
Not all non-original innovations are evil.
Having owned one of these cars back in the 60's, I can say with authority that vapor lock was a common problem - whether new or used. Of course, back then there were all sorts of attempts at solving the problem that included logical steps (isolating the intake from the carburetor with several extra gaskets would work up until they broke apart and started leaking) and illogical gimmicks (at the time someone made a lot of money with shiney little strips of aluminum foil you taped to your fuel lines).
The reason for dozens of earnest and rip-off solutions to vapor lock was because it was distressingly common. particularly with higher performance motors operating in the South.
The spacer can also act to enlarge the intake plenum a bit, yielding some advantages in that area, depending on carburetor and cam selection.
If the primary goal is to keep it all original, by all means, its perfectly possible to avoid adding non-OE items like spacers. But some of these cars were prone to ocassional vapor lock from the word go. I owned one, and the dealer and I went round and round with it for a year, until it was out of warranty. When I sold it 5 years later, and in spite of a larger radiator and cooler thermostat (neither of which stock OE, of course) it would still ocassionally turn the carburetor into a heat sink and be hard to crank.
Not all non-original innovations are evil.
Hi again.
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My dad had a '71 mach 1 with the same problem, I now drive a '66 coupe (has nothing to do with my answer) If you still use points and condensers and haven't changed to an electronic ignition it's probably your points. They'll get hot and after you turn off your car they stick, after it cools down it starts no problem right? Check that out, it might be that simple. Good luck.
Dont worry about the embarrassment, its the excitement of owning a classic car lol. My dad had to push his through a turn pike in Kansas bc of this problem.
Dont worry about the embarrassment, its the excitement of owning a classic car lol. My dad had to push his through a turn pike in Kansas bc of this problem.
Yeah Flower I SURE DO NOT want to have to push it. Your dad must have had a few choice words when he got HOME! ! LOL ! I don't think it's the points though because it doesn't have to cool down to start. It will usually start 3rd or 4th try. I haven't had the timing checked since I got it so taking Veronica's advice I'm also going to do that and change out the thermostat as well. We'll get to the bottom of this eventually. Thanks all of you !
Hi again.
I couldn't really address what people where doing back then, since I wasn't around, but I have had my hands on a whole bunch of these cars, and they all had two things in common. None of them had a phenolic spacer and none of them experienced vapor lock when I got finished with them. The car that I drive everyday has the factory carb spacer that was intended to prevent carburetor icing.Here's a picture of it. You'll notice that one of the heater hoses goes through it. Here's a picture of that set-up.I don't know what the average temperature is where you are, but I would be willing to bet that it is significantly lower than here in Houston.:gringreen I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it or anything, it's just that my experience has been that there is always a way to have the car start and run reliably with the same set-up that Ford used. I didn't mean to imply that I thought that the phenolic spacer was a bad idea, I just said that personally, I'm not a big fan of it.Attachments
Hi again. That's a pretty car.:eyepoppin From what I see in that picture of the engine bay, it appears that the fuel line is leaning against the upper radiator hose and then has the heater hose pressing the fuel filter down onto the valve cover. That heater hose gets pretty hot, as does that valve cover.:gringreen If you re-route the fuel line so that it isn't making physical contact with all all of that, that might help out on the vapor lock thing. Also, I'm assuming that that's an Edelbrock carb from the way the fuel line comes into it. People that put Edelbrock carbs on their car frequently put one on that's a bit too big for their car. They soon discover that bigger isn't always better and compensate by setting it to run a little bit too lean of an air/fuel mixture, which causes a car to run a little hotter than it should. Without going into a lengthy discusion on how Edelbrocks differ from Autolites and Holleys, the idle air/fuel setting matters a whole lot more on an Edelbrock. If you will back the idle air/fuel mixture screws out(counter-clockwise) about an 8th of a turn each. that might help it out some. If not, you can always just run them back in to where they were. Hope that helps.
That's a pretty car.:eyepoppin From what I see in that picture of the engine bay, it appears that the fuel line is leaning against the upper radiator hose and then has the heater hose pressing the fuel filter down onto the valve cover. That heater hose gets pretty hot, as does that valve cover.:gringreen If you re-route the fuel line so that it isn't making physical contact with all all of that, that might help out on the vapor lock thing. Also, I'm assuming that that's an Edelbrock carb from the way the fuel line comes into it. People that put Edelbrock carbs on their car frequently put one on that's a bit too big for their car. They soon discover that bigger isn't always better and compensate by setting it to run a little bit too lean of an air/fuel mixture, which causes a car to run a little hotter than it should. Without going into a lengthy discusion on how Edelbrocks differ from Autolites and Holleys, the idle air/fuel setting matters a whole lot more on an Edelbrock. If you will back the idle air/fuel mixture screws out(counter-clockwise) about an 8th of a turn each. that might help it out some. If not, you can always just run them back in to where they were. Hope that helps.
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My Cougar was hard to start when hot, with its original Autolite. I rebuilt it, but the problem persisted. When I put a Holley 4160, and aluminum intake on it, the problem went away. When it seems like it's gonna replicate the problem, I simply floor the throttle, and it fires up.
I'd avoid the 160º thermostat, I wouldn't go lower than 180º, I've read that the 160º doesn't let the oil get warm enough to flow as needed. 160ºs are a definite no-no in fuel injected Stangs.
I do concur on the fuel filter resting against the valve cover - it's a heat sink.
I suspect that today's gasoline is more prone to the vapors than what was available in the '60s and '70s.
You can always attach a bunch of clothes-pins to the fuel line.:gringreen I'll bet that tripleblack is familiar with that one...
I'd avoid the 160º thermostat, I wouldn't go lower than 180º, I've read that the 160º doesn't let the oil get warm enough to flow as needed. 160ºs are a definite no-no in fuel injected Stangs.
I do concur on the fuel filter resting against the valve cover - it's a heat sink.
I suspect that today's gasoline is more prone to the vapors than what was available in the '60s and '70s.
You can always attach a bunch of clothes-pins to the fuel line.:gringreen I'll bet that tripleblack is familiar with that one...
As far as oil flow goes, the oils that are produced now are of a much higher quality than they were even as recently as ten years ago. Also, a 160 thermostat very seldom opens at 160. Most cookie cutter, OTC thermostats open a little late anyway, and the temperature of the intake at the sending unit is going to be a little lower than the actual temerature of the oil, since the radiator fan is basically blowing right onto the sending unit of a 289 and the oil is contained within the engine. Or, at least, on some of these cars the oil is contained within the engine. Some split the containment up between the motor and your driveway. Personally, I use Mobil1, so there aren't any temperature related flow issues, but even with dinosaur oil, the 160 thermostat shouldn't cause any trouble. For fuelies, a 160 thermostat would be the kiss of death, but it won't hurt anything on a carbureted motor, especially not one built to those exacting tolerances Ford was using in the 60s.
Clothespins......EEEEEEK. Maybe they make chrome clothespins to match my valve covers? Anyway......today I isolated the fuel line from the heater hose (which I believe was causing the problem after further investigation.) So far no vapor lock. I'll drive it again tomorrow and see what happens. Instead of vapor lock I found that the pre-formed fuel line from the carb. to the fuel pump is pinched somewhat so I ordered another from Cal-Mustang (another project). I also found a vibration in the rear at freeway speeds. Could be the tires unbalanced as I rotated them the other day and the car didn't vibrate before that. Re-balancing manana. If it's not that I suppose I'll have to have the drive line balanced. I'm sure glad I'm not working right now. Gives me a lot of time to play and find NEW things to replace.......hehehe. Guess I'll have to get a job to PAY for the replacements though. LOL !
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Chrome Clothespins.... He He. :hihi:
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Right
180 on the thermostat - meangreen is correct. 160 is too cool for that motor. Changing to a synthetic oil (mobil one) and a wetting agent (redline) in the coolant would also help.
180 on the thermostat - meangreen is correct. 160 is too cool for that motor. Changing to a synthetic oil (mobil one) and a wetting agent (redline) in the coolant would also help.
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