[herbie55]

Major rebuild done with a Thumper cam and new lifters. After running the engine, I discovered hydraulic lock-up in all 16 lifters. I have replaced the cam and lifters, and the new ones did the same thing. Help me figure out what is causing this please. I'm pulling my hair out!

 

[Grimbrand]

What do you mean by lock-up? Are they not compressing at all, or are they collapsed and not supporting your pushrods?

If they're collapsed, you may not have enough oil pressure, or it's possible that you've somehow got the wrong lifters for your engine. It can also happen because your lifters are not intended for use with really high-pressure springs.

Other possibilities: Wrong pushrod lengths, wrong adjustment of rocker arms, clogged oil galley.

What year is your block, and what kind of lifters?

 

[Travis98146]

Your lifters should "pump up" and act like solids while the car is running. Otherwise they would collapse and you'd get lifter rattle and engine miss until they "pump up" again. New lifters should be pre-filled by putting each one into a can of oil and using a pushrod to expel the air in the lifter and fill it with oil (you'll see bubbles coming up from the lifter until it's full of oil). Very few are "pre-filled" from the factory but most are not. If you adjusted the lifters when they were "dry", then they'd hold a valve open when they filled with oil.

 

[GT'sGT]

Your lifters should "pump up" and act like solids while the car is running. Otherwise they would collapse and you'd get lifter rattle and engine miss until they "pump up" again. New lifters should be pre-filled by putting each one into a can of oil and using a pushrod to expel the air in the lifter and fill it with oil (you'll see bubbles coming up from the lifter until it's full of oil). Very few are "pre-filled" from the factory but most are not. If you adjusted the lifters when they were "dry", then they'd hold a valve open when they filled with oil.

I have heard it both ways, some guys say always fill lifters with oil, some say never fill them with oil, let the oil pump for that. There are some parts that will void a warranty if you pre fill with oil, but I have never seen any that will void it if you didn't, so I never do. Never had a problem letting the pump do it's job. Lifters will leak down after they are installed anyways.

 

[Grimbrand]

The main thing would be to ensure that they are all full of oil BEFORE you start the engine. So if you don't prime them and pre-fill before installation, you'll have a long time cranking on the oil pump with a drill before you throw your dizzy in.

If they don't have oil, they won't work right on startup, and that would be a very serious problem for a flat-tappet car especially - but not good for any vehicle.

 

[GT'sGT]

The main thing would be to ensure that they are all full of oil BEFORE you start the engine. So if you don't prime them and pre-fill before installation, you'll have a long time cranking on the oil pump with a drill before you throw your dizzy in.

If they don't have oil, they won't work right on startup, and that would be a very serious problem for a flat-tappet car especially - but not good for any vehicle.

I disagree, as does this guy...

This is interesting as well...

Hydraulic lifters... correct install procedure? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board

 

[Grimbrand]

What he doesn't seem to understand is that they are *supposed* to be 'up' and pressurized. Not spongy. Especially when you set your valves, etc. It is their natural state, after an engine's been started at least once.

 

[GT'sGT]

What he doesn't seem to understand is that they are *supposed* to be 'up' and pressurized. Not spongy. Especially when you set your valves, etc. It is their natural state, after an engine's been started at least once.

Lifters should only pump up to the point that eliminates the space in the valve train, not beyond that point which will cause lifter lock up as the OP said he has seen already twice!

A lifter that is filled by the oil pump in a running engine will never fill past the point it needs to be at to eliminate the slop, but a lifter filled out of the engine has no way of knowing how much slop will be in the valve it is moving until it is in the valve train and will very likely be filled beyond the point it should be at.

Of course he can always keep doing what he has been doing and continue to get the same results and buy another set after set of lifters, at least until he runs out of money I suppose. facepalm2.gif I recommend to try a new approach to the one that fails repeatedly. :wink:

 

[Grimbrand]

Let me put this another way. If your engine was already running, and you put on some new heads, would you have to 'drain out' your old lifters in order to use them? Of course not.

Most Fords don't even have an actual adjustment on their pedestal style rockers. You have to make sure everything matches and fits, including the correct pushrod length. You bolt it up, and you're done. Not to say that you shouldn't check clearances and all that! The actual amount a hydraulic lifter should be compressed is something like .14" or so. They should not be mushy or soft, else they would never stand up to 110+ lbs of seat pressure closed, much less open, which is considerably higher. There's no slop.

The old tradition of soaking them, and using an old pushrod in some kind of handle to press the plunger and get them full of oil is largely irrelevant. I've never seen that cause problems myself. But they WILL fill with oil when you pressurize the oiling system either by priming your new engine's oil pump, or the first time you turn it over and it actually manages to start. So basically, it seems like a lot of wasted effort with your hands in motor oil, making a big mess, pumping on those slippery devils till your arms want to fall off.

Even if you turn over the engine without first pressurizing the oil system, it would still have to get the air out of the lifters before they could deliver full lift to the valves anyway, so I'd imagine it'd have a hard time starting until you've got oil in them. The only difference is that you'd be filling them by cranking your starter a long time, instead of priming your pump through other means.

In my humble opinion, it is far better to prime the engine and ensure that air is out of the oil galleys before that critical first start, and verifying that you can deliver good oil pressure. That way you can determine if there is a problem long before the engine fires. Doing so would inevitably fill all the lifters. I have never seen a lifter explode from 40-60 lbs of oil pressure, or malfunction because the oil pump was being run by a drill. Nor have I seen them suddenly go hog wild and shove the pushrods too far out, when the pushrod length and valvetrain geometry was correct, even after normal pressure was delivered.

Checking their pre-lash - even after priming the oil system, or after your first start - would not automatically mean that they can't be adjusted correctly simply because the lifters aren't full of air anymore.

All this, to get back to the original issue, which is: What make of lifters are you running, and when you say "hydraulic lock-up" do you mean that they are collapsed, or that they are full and doing more or less what they're supposed to do - except that you seem to be having a problem, Herbie?

 

[GT'sGT]

Let me put this another way. If your engine was already running, and you put on some new heads, would you have to 'drain out' your old lifters in order to use them? Of course not.

Most Fords don't even have an actual adjustment on their pedestal style rockers. You have to make sure everything matches and fits, including the correct pushrod length. You bolt it up, and you're done. Not to say that you shouldn't check clearances and all that! The actual amount a hydraulic lifter should be compressed is something like .14" or so. They should not be mushy or soft, else they would never stand up to 110+ lbs of seat pressure closed, much less open, which is considerably higher. There's no slop.

The old tradition of soaking them, and using an old pushrod in some kind of handle to press the plunger and get them full of oil is largely irrelevant. I've never seen that cause problems myself. But they WILL fill with oil when you pressurize the oiling system either by priming your new engine's oil pump, or the first time you turn it over and it actually manages to start. So basically, it seems like a lot of wasted effort with your hands in motor oil, making a big mess, pumping on those slippery devils till your arms want to fall off.

Even if you turn over the engine without first pressurizing the oil system, it would still have to get the air out of the lifters before they could deliver full lift to the valves anyway, so I'd imagine it'd have a hard time starting until you've got oil in them. The only difference is that you'd be filling them by cranking your starter a long time, instead of priming your pump through other means.

In my humble opinion, it is far better to prime the engine and ensure that air is out of the oil galleys before that critical first start, and verifying that you can deliver good oil pressure. That way you can determine if there is a problem long before the engine fires. Doing so would inevitably fill all the lifters. I have never seen a lifter explode from 40-60 lbs of oil pressure, or malfunction because the oil pump was being run by a drill. Nor have I seen them suddenly go hog wild and shove the pushrods too far out, when the pushrod length and valvetrain geometry was correct, even after normal pressure was delivered.

Checking their pre-lash - even after priming the oil system, or after your first start - would not automatically mean that they can't be adjusted correctly simply because the lifters aren't full of air anymore.

All this, to get back to the original issue, which is: What make of lifters are you running, and when you say "hydraulic lock-up" do you mean that they are collapsed, or that they are full and doing more or less what they're supposed to do - except that you seem to be having a problem, Herbie?

If you put on a new head, you would not change the height the lifters pump up to, it would be the same still. I would always prime the oil pump before starting up a fresh engine the first time, either with a drill, or by pulling the coil wire and hitting the starter, but I'd do it with the engine completely built up, not with the lifters out. Then they will only pump up to the correct height and not too tall for the push-rods as can happen if they are pre-filled outside the engine and then installed. These are two completely different scenarios.


We were talking about pre filling the lifters outside the engine

(New lifters should be pre-filled by putting each one into a can of oil and using a pushrod to expel the air in the lifter and fill it with oil (you'll see bubbles coming up from the lifter until it's full of oil). Very few are "pre-filled" from the factory but most are not.

)which should not be done and now you are talking about priming the oil pump before starting it up, which I would recommend doing.

 

[Ivy66GT]

We don't even know if this disagreement has anything to do with the question asked since herbie55 has never replied to explain his problem.

The Ford factory method was to install lifters dry and let the oil pump fill them. If you did fill them you may well overfill them and hold valves open which can cause more harm than good. Too little lift will never damage a valve; too much lift can. You will probably just waste your time trying and not fill them anyway. It takes pressure to force oil inside through those small clearances. If the clerances were large enough to fill easily then the lifters would leak down much too quickly.

Ford says they will fill faster if you leave them dry. In the 289 section of a '66 shop manual, page 8-79, bottom of column 1, step 35: Do not fill the lifters with oil. The lifters will fill much faster after the engine is started , if they are free of any oil film which may cause an oil seal between the plunger and lifter body.

On first start they clatter for a few seconds until they fill with oil. They are supposed to do that. I have done it many times just as Ford intended, all with flat tappet engines, and never had a problem.

 

[GT'sGT]

We don't even know if this disagreement has anything to do with the question asked since herbie55 has never replied to explain his problem.

The Ford factory method was to install lifters dry and let the oil pump fill them. If you did fill them you may well overfill them and hold valves open which can cause more harm than good. Too little lift will never damage a valve; too much lift can. You will probably just waste your time trying and not fill them anyway. It takes pressure to force oil inside through those small clearances. If the clerances were large enough to fill easily then the lifters would leak down much too quickly.

Ford says they will fill faster if you leave them dry. In the 289 section of a '66 shop manual, page 8-79, bottom of column 1, step 35: Do not fill the lifters with oil. The lifters will fill much faster after the engine is started , if they are free of any oil film which may cause an oil seal between the plunger and lifter body.

On first start they clatter for a few seconds until they fill with oil. They are supposed to do that. I have done it many times just as Ford intended, all with flat tappet engines, and never had a problem.

Precisely.

 

[Beechkid]

what I do is just dump them quicky in a bucket of oil...just enough to coat the lifters...never soak soak em…… then I know they are lubed all over but not filled...….

 

[GT'sGT]

what I do is just dump them quicky in a bucket of oil...just enough to coat the lifters...never soak soak em…… then I know they are lubed all over but not filled...….

It's a lot better to lube only the outside with some assembly lube like lubriplate and also lube the lobes of the cam with the same. Dipping them in oil can cause an oil seal that won't allow the oil to fill the lifter as quickly as it does if it's dry inside.

 

[Yadkin]

Ivy and GT are correct .

I've done what Herbie 55 has done and had to learn the hard way. I put too much faith in the lifter manufacturer's cryptic install instructions supported by internet experts, so spent a lot of frustrating hours re-installing new lifters. In an FE engine this involves removing the intake manifold, so it's a costly and time-consuming job. After three sets I finally hired an experienced engine builder to do it for me and he was nice enough to explain what and why.

After driving the car a few thousand miles over a wide range of conditions and scenarios it makes sense. Starting the car after a weeks vacation the lifters make a racket upon staring then quiet right down.

My '12 Jeep with the Pentastar V6 has twin overhead cams, 24 valves and plastic cam covers, and rattles like heck for the first few seconds at startup. One time it scared the hell out of my body and paint expert friend, who knows just enough about engines to be nearly as dangerous as I am. He told me to "find someone who can fix that!" I explained to him about the plastic cover and overhead cams, that's what he was hearing. The engine has nearly 160,000 miles on it and runs perfectly.