[heavyD]

double post (15 characters)

 

[heavyD]

double post 2 (15 characters)

 

[heavyD]

Supposedly the Pirelli Pzeros that come on the Mustang are different than the Pirelli Pzeros that were tested in Car and Driver. Somebody wrote them a question about it and they answered it in Backfires. He asked, " How can the Pzeros come in last place? I have them on my Mustang GT, and its such great tire. " C&D said that off the shelf Pzeros aren't the same, because Pirelli manufacturers tires specifically for Mustang, as well as other cars that come from the factory with Pirellis.

I don't know if that's true but that's what they said. I guess the shoes that Nike makes for Lebron to wear, are of a higher quality than the same shoe that they sell the public.

To Glock, who is considering suicide because he bought his tires before reading this review, no offense to the op, I would take this review with a grain of salt. I don't think I've ever seen someone say, " I just bought a new set of tires and they suck, I'm warning you to never buy these ". Its all subjective. That's why I really enjoyed the C&D tire review and I hope they do many more of them. The difference between the 1st and last place tire was, stopping 7ft shorter on dry pavement, .06 g on the skid pad, and 2 seconds better in autocross.

So basically you'd have to be a highly advanced robot to "feel" those differences. Moral of the story is, don't spend a lot of money on tires, because the op is right, the gap has really narrowed.

The P-Zeros on the Brembo Mustang are the same tread design and rubber compound as OTS P-Zeros, the difference is likely the load rating being optimized for the Mustang.

 

[12blackgt]

The P-Zeros on the Brembo Mustang are the same tread design and rubber compound as OTS P-Zeros, the difference is likely the load rating being optimized for the Mustang.

Agreed! I'm a Manufacturing Engineer by education and profession and I can tell you an ISO certified company like Pirelli does not make "special tires" unless you're talking about very low volumes such as Ferrari!

 

[12blackgt]

Supposedly the Pirelli Pzeros that come on the Mustang are different than the Pirelli Pzeros that were tested in Car and Driver. Somebody wrote them a question about it and they answered it in Backfires. He asked, " How can the Pzeros come in last place? I have them on my Mustang GT, and its such great tire. " C&D said that off the shelf Pzeros aren't the same, because Pirelli manufacturers tires specifically for Mustang, as well as other cars that come from the factory with Pirellis.

I don't know if that's true but that's what they said. I guess the shoes that Nike makes for Lebron to wear, are of a higher quality than the same shoe that they sell the public.

To Glock, who is considering suicide because he bought his tires before reading this review, no offense to the op, I would take this review with a grain of salt. I don't think I've ever seen someone say, " I just bought a new set of tires and they suck, I'm warning you to never buy these ". Its all subjective. That's why I really enjoyed the C&D tire review and I hope they do many more of them. The difference between the 1st and last place tire was, stopping 7ft shorter on dry pavement, .06 g on the skid pad, and 2 seconds better in autocross.

So basically you'd have to be a highly advanced robot to "feel" those differences. Moral of the story is, don't spend a lot of money on tires, because the op is right, the gap has really narrowed.

No one would write a negative article/thread about the OEM Pirellis due to having no perspective. It's when you take the OEM Pirellis off of the car that you realize how bad they are. I suspected all the negative things about the Pirellis that the TOYOs have proven in less than 200 miles, but now I don't suspect any longer I know. AND if the TOYOs were as bad as the Pirellis I would definitly have said so. I knew it was a gamble in buying the TOYOs only 6 months after their initial release, but my gamble paid off and won. If it went the other way I would have made a thread and said, "Don't make the mistake I did".

 

[Guest]

Just an objective observation.

Today it was a nice 75 degree in Melbourne Florida........on my drive home this evening it was 45 degrees here.

Guess what?

With my new, 1 day old tires, I gunned it several times from a roll in both 1st and 2nd gear, which a day ago would have resulted in lurid slides and the TC kicking in. Today? On this cold, 45 degree, dark evening? 100% traction, no wheel spin, wicked acceleration. Plus the expected smoother and quieter ride.

So, OP, most of what you're sensing probably IS largely the difference of just having new tires. But when the OEM tires are new, they provide awesome traction and a smooth, quiet ride. Still, I agree 100% that the tread life is crap with the OEM tires, and they get damn slick and slippery towards the end of their life. But when new, they work very, very well.

That doesn't mean that I won't investigate other options 10k miles from now, but the OEMs are amazing tires, and definitely NOT what C&D tested.

 

[12blackgt]

Just an objective observation.

Today it was a nice 75 degree in Melbourne Florida........on my drive home this evening it was 45 degrees here.

Guess what?

With my new, 1 day old tires, I gunned it several times from a roll in both 1st and 2nd gear, which a day ago would have resulted in lurid slides and the TC kicking in. Today? On this cold, 45 degree, dark evening? 100% traction, no wheel spin, wicked acceleration. Plus the expected smoother and quieter ride.

So, OP, most of what you're sensing probably IS largely the difference of just having new tires. But when the OEM tires are new, they provide awesome traction and a smooth, quiet ride. Still, I agree 100% that the tread life is crap with the OEM tires, and they get damn slick and slippery towards the end of their life. But when new, they work very, very well.

That doesn't mean that I won't investigate other options 10k miles from now, but the OEMs are amazing tires, and definitely NOT what C&D tested.

All I can tell you is we have different experiences. From day one in my car the Pirellis have not given traction anywhere near what the TOYOs already have. At about 3k miles I had one memorable experience racing a V8 M3. All you street racing nazis spare me it was just this ONE time. Anyway . . ... I nailed a perfect start and destroyed him out of the hole. At the top of 1st gear I had him by a car length. I could see the entire M3 in my side view mirror. Speed shifted into 2nd and the car kicked sideways and spun the tires so hard the traction control kicked in. It was like throwing out a parachute and the M3 was long gone. No, there wasn't any water and it was a bight sunny day. We met up again two more times, but my traction problems only got worse. My experience is also different than yours with temperature. The colder it gets instead of spinning the tires that energy is converted to axle hop. Axle hop so bad that you have to lift because it feels like the car's going to shake apart. I'm glad you're pleased with your Pirellis, but I remain glad they're gone! You're in denial with C&D's test. It's exactly what they tested and last place was earned!

 

[Guest]

All I can tell you is we have different experiences. From day one in my car the Pirellis have not given traction anywhere near what the TOYOs already have. At about 3k miles I had one memorable experience racing a V8 M3. All you street racing nazis spare me it was just this ONE time. Anyway . . ... I nailed a perfect start and destroyed him out of the hole. At the top of 1st gear I had him by a car length. I could see the entire M3 in my side view mirror. Speed shifted into 2nd and the car kicked sideways and spun the tires so hard the traction control kicked in. It was like throwing out a parachute and the M3 was long gone. No, there wasn't any water and it was a bight sunny day. We met up again two more times, but my traction problems only got worse. My experience is also different than yours with temperature. The colder it gets instead of spinning the tires that energy is converted to axle hop. Axle hop so bad that you have to lift because it feels like the car's going to shake apart. I'm glad you're pleased with your Pirellis, but I remain glad they're gone! You're in denial with C&D's test. It's exactly what they tested and last place was earned!

As far as to which Pirelli tire was actually tested, others have posted here that they weren't the Brembo tires, so that's what I'm going by. I have to, because the singular web page, out of the entire on-line C&D article, about the Pirelli tires finishing last, is gone. So please pardon me if I'm going by the thought that the Pirellis that they did test were either the ones that come on the non-Brembo 5.0s, or the wrong Pirellis in the correct size for Brembo cars.

If they did test the MO (Mercedes Original) Pirelli tires that come on our Brembo cars, instead of the Pirelli tires that come on the base 5.0s, and you know that for a fact, I'll accept it, as I can't myself get the information on the web. With that page missing from the on-line article, I'm suspicious that C&D had the wrong tires, and Pirelli forced them to remove the page.

Any chance you have the actual article, the magazine in hand? I ask because I not only suspect they were testing tires for a base, non-Brembo 5.0, but because there are 3 very different Pirelli tires that look completely identical that fit Brembo cars. There just seems to be too many opportunities for the tires tested to be the wrong ones. Even my dealership originally got the wrong Pirelli tires in at first, and had to re-order the correct ones that have the "MO" on the side. The service manager had to go out to his showroom and see the "MO" on the side of a tire on a Brembo Mustang, to understand what i was talking about, and get the correct ones ordered.

Also, can you remember the weather conditions, the temperature, when you raced the M3? I have to assume that in your area is was a nice warm day, but I could be wrong.

As far as your current tires working better, in many ways I'm sure they do. I would imagine that a high-performance all-season tire would be much more progressive in how they lose and re-gain traction, which for us non-F1 drivers, should work much better. They should have more forgiveness in them, easier for normal drivers to work with. At the ragged edge, I would imagine that the OEM MO Brembo Pirellis perform at a higher level, but that one needs driving skills I am certain I do not possess to get the most out of them.

Still, there has been almost universal condemnation for our stock tires, so I am absolutely not surprised that you are really enjoying your new tires, and there is a very good chance that I will give them a try 10K miles from now.

 

[12blackgt]

As far as to which Pirelli tire was actually tested, others have posted here that they weren't the Brembo tires, so that's what I'm going by. I have to, because the singular web page, out of the entire on-line C&D article, about the Pirelli tires finishing last, is gone. So please pardon me if I'm going by the thought that the Pirellis that they did test were either the ones that come on the non-Brembo 5.0s, or the wrong Pirellis in the correct size for Brembo cars.

If they did test the MO (Mercedes Original) Pirelli tires that come on our Brembo cars, instead of the Pirelli tires that come on the base 5.0s, and you know that for a fact, I'll accept it, as I can't myself get the information on the web. With that page missing from the on-line article, I'm suspicious that C&D had the wrong tires, and Pirelli forced them to remove the page.

Any chance you have the actual article, the magazine in hand? I ask because I not only suspect they were testing tires for a base, non-Brembo 5.0, but because there are 3 very different Pirelli tires that look completely identical that fit Brembo cars. There just seems to be too many opportunities for the tires tested to be the wrong ones. Even my dealership originally got the wrong Pirelli tires in at first, and had to re-order the correct ones that have the "MO" on the side. The service manager had to go out to his showroom and see the "MO" on the side of a tire on a Brembo Mustang, to understand what i was talking about, and get the correct ones ordered.

Also, can you remember the weather conditions, the temperature, when you raced the M3? I have to assume that in your area is was a nice warm day, but I could be wrong.

As far as your current tires working better, in many ways I'm sure they do. I would imagine that a high-performance all-season tire would be much more progressive in how they lose and re-gain traction, which for us non-F1 drivers, should work much better. They should have more forgiveness in them, easier for normal drivers to work with. At the ragged edge, I would imagine that the OEM MO Brembo Pirellis perform at a higher level, but that one needs driving skills I am certain I do not possess to get the most out of them.

Still, there has been almost universal condemnation for our stock tires, so I am absolutely not surprised that you are really enjoying your new tires, and there is a very good chance that I will give them a try 10K miles from now.

Monsters of Grip: Nine Summer-Performance Tires Tested - Comparison Test - Car and Driver

Above is the test I've been referring to and it does test the Pirelli that comes with the Brembo GT. Not the exact size, but everything else is the same. Yes, my race with the M3 was in the summer and it was HOT! In fact I remember I had a few seconds before the light went green and I thought "should I turn the AC off"? I didn't, but it didn't matter with the slide and traction control issues I had with the gear change.

 

[rex_harrison]

If I knew how to post a picture on here, I'd take a pic of the Backfire section of C&D where they said the tires they tested weren't the same as the OEM ones on the GT's , and that the ones on the GT are a better tire.

 

[Guest]

Monsters of Grip: Nine Summer-Performance Tires Tested - Comparison Test - Car and Driver

Above is the test I've been referring to and it does test the Pirelli that comes with the Brembo GT. Not the exact size, but everything else is the same. Yes, my race with the M3 was in the summer and it was HOT! In fact I remember I had a few seconds before the light went green and I thought "should I turn the AC off"? I didn't, but it didn't matter with the slide and traction control issues I had with the gear change.

O.k., now I get it. We're not talking about the same tires at all. Not one bit.

Not only are they sized for, and tested with, a completely different vehicle, but they most certainly are not "OM" Pirellis.....the tires tested have basically very little to do with the OEM tires that come on our cars.

Now I'm starting to get all the derision for the stock tires on our cars.....a test that has nothing to do with our cars, and people parroting incorrect information. Hell, for our cars, there are 3 very different, and 99% identical tires for them. Getting the right ones means everything.

An actual tire engineer from Ford could explain with much more knowledge, but the tires for our car were choosen for very specific, well defined performance reasons. Reading the article, they talk about under-steer. Well, one thing my Brembo stang does NOT do is understeer. More precisely, oversteer is the major issue with our cars.

I submitt that the tires chosen for our cars work very well....for a few thousand miles, and then they turn to ****. Espcially when the temps drop. Normal for such tires, and expensive.

I'm not poo-pooing your purchase decision, just trying to set the record straight.

 

[12blackgt]

O.k., now I get it. We're not talking about the same tires at all. Not one bit.

Not only are they sized for, and tested with, a completely different vehicle, but they most certainly are not "OM" Pirellis.....the tires tested have basically very little to do with the OEM tires that come on our cars.

Now I'm starting to get all the derision for the stock tires on our cars.....a test that has nothing to do with our cars, and people parroting incorrect information. Hell, for our cars, there are 3 very different, and 99% identical tires for them. Getting the right ones means everything.

An actual tire engineer from Ford could explain with much more knowledge, but the tires for our car were choosen for very specific, well defined performance reasons. Reading the article, they talk about under-steer. Well, one thing my Brembo stang does NOT do is understeer. More precisely, oversteer is the major issue with our cars.

I submitt that the tires chosen for our cars work very well....for a few thousand miles, and then they turn to ****. Espcially when the temps drop. Normal for such tires, and expensive.

I'm not poo-pooing your purchase decision, just trying to set the record straight.

You've totally lost me? It was obvious this thread had nothing to do with Pirellis other than what came on the OEM Brembo wheels. There was a picture of the OEM Brembo wheel in the very first thread. Discussion of any Pirelli other than the OEM Brembo Pirelli was and is irellevant. Furthermore, the Pirelli in C&Ds test other than size is the same tire that comes with the OEM Brembo wheel. Therefore completely applicable to the tire I took off of my Brembo wheels. If you push a Brembo GT hard enough into a corner it will most definitly understeer. Especially a high speed corner. It's perfectly fine if you "poo poo" my tire decision. However, I urge you not to be like most other people on this site and don't talk about things you have no experience with. People will poo poo a TOYO PROXES 4 plus simply because it's a UHP all season tire and not a max performance summer tire. Even though they've never driven a UHP tire much less a TOYO PROXES 4 plus.

 

[Guest]

Furthermore, the Pirelli in C&Ds test other than size is the same tire that comes with the OEM Brembo wheel. ..................If you push a Brembo GT hard enough into a corner it will most definitly understeer. Especially a high speed corner.

No, they absolutely are not. Why you are struggling with this fact I don't understand, but you need to accept this fact at face value. Tires can LOOK similar, have similar markings on their sides, and have little to do with one another. From tread compounds, to basic construction of the carcass, to the number of belts manufactured into them, they are very different. Don't be fooled by that article and it's incorrect findings, it has nothing to do with our cars or our OEM tires, much less how they work on our cars.

Yes, you can understeer ANY car with bad driving. That's not the issue Brembo cars have with their live-axel, rear-wheel drive, understeer is.

 

[mustangkid9234]

...wait, yes they tested a smaller different size tire then OEM brembo's
but the tires across the board were tested same platform and assume as close as possible tire sizes to each other so there for the test is even. Next, you or who ever is replacing their tires with p zeros are now using OTS tires and according to you is a different tire. There for they are almost the same as the one's tested and according to you worse then the GTs...
argument invalid
/thread

 

[Guest]

...wait, yes they tested a smaller different size tire then OEM brembo's
but the tires across the board were tested same platform and assume as close as possible tire sizes to each other so there for the test is even. Next, you or who ever is replacing their tires with p zeros are now using OTS tires and according to you is a different tire. There for they are almost the same as the one's tested and according to you worse then the GTs...
argument invalid
/thread

You have, absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.

You obviously haven't even been able to follow this thread, much less understood enough to challenge the facts from one thread to another.

Go away kid.

 

[12blackgt]

No, they absolutely are not. Why you are struggling with this fact I don't understand, but you need to accept this fact at face value. Tires can LOOK similar, have similar markings on their sides, and have little to do with one another. From tread compounds, to basic construction of the carcass, to the number of belts manufactured into them, they are very different. Don't be fooled by that article and it's incorrect findings, it has nothing to do with our cars or our OEM tires, much less how they work on our cars.

Yes, you can understeer ANY car with bad driving. That's not the issue Brembo cars have with their live-axel, rear-wheel drive, understeer is.

They most certainly are! From the factory in 2012 19" wheels come with either a P ZERO NERO, or a P ZERO. The Brembo wheel does not come with a P ZERO NERO. It comes with a P ZERO. The tread pattern in the C&D article is that of the P ZERO and not the P ZERO NERO. I'm not the one struggling here. You are! There is NOT an OTS P ZERO and another P ZERO created just for the Mustang. There is only one P ZERO. There are different size P ZEROs, but the rubber compound, the wear rating, the speed rating etc. are all the same amoungst the P ZERO family. If you think anything else you are WRONG!
99% of all production cars have understeer designed in at the limit. It's got nothing to do with bad drivers. Even cars with a 50/50 weight distribution are designed to understeer. It was deemed as a safety issue a long time ago since people freak out and over correct with oversteer. The Porsche 911 with the engine hanging out past the rear axle understeers! It didn't used to, but it does now!

 

[heavyD]

Time to clear this mess up. The tires in the C&D test are the identical P-Zero tire (outside of the size and maybe load rating) that all Brembo equipped Mustangs get from the factory. Other Mustangs get the all season P-Zero Nero tires which are different.

 

[Guest]

They most certainly are! From the factory in 2012 19" wheels come with either a P ZERO NERO, or a P ZERO. The Brembo wheel does not come with a P ZERO NERO. It comes with a P ZERO. The tread pattern in the C&D article is that of the P ZERO and not the P ZERO NERO. I'm not the one struggling here. You are! There is NOT an OTS P ZERO and another P ZERO created just for the Mustang. There is only one P ZERO. There are different size P ZEROs, but the rubber compound, the wear rating, the speed rating etc. are all the same amoungst the P ZERO family. If you think anything else you are WRONG!
99% of all production cars have understeer designed in at the limit. It's got nothing to do with bad drivers. Even cars with a 50/50 weight distribution are designed to understeer. It was deemed as a safety issue a long time ago since people freak out and over correct with oversteer. The Porsche 911 with the engine hanging out past the rear axle understeers! It didn't used to, but it does now!

Time to clear this mess up. The tires in the C&D test are the identical P-Zero tire (outside of the size and maybe load rating) that all Brembo equipped Mustangs get from the factory. Other Mustangs get the all season P-Zero Nero tires which are different.

Both of you are completely incorrect. I am sick and tired of having to correct people on this topic, so I'm going to copy and paste my post from another current thread on basically the same topic.

Let's be VERY CLEAR about this, because you and everyone else is spreading incorrect information. You're reading another idiot post incorrect information, assuming it's correct, and spreading it around like a cold.

The tires tested by C&D have NOTHING TO DO with the tires on Brembo cars except a simlar tread pattern and side-wall markings.

If you do not own a Brembo car, have not shopped for replacement tires, not been forced to learn the differences between the 3 similar, same sized Pirelli Max Performance Summer tires that fit on Brembo cars, BUT ARE VERY DIFFERENT, please don't try and comment.

That article is crap, and has nothing to do with the Pirellis tires on Brembo cars, which are very, very specific "Original Mercedes" tires. An owner of a Brembo car could go onto TireRack.com, select the incorrect set of Pirelli Max Performance Summer Only tires that look exactly the same, and are the exact same OEM size, and completely wreck the handling of their car. One must know precisely which tires to get, and all three are very, very different from the tires tested by C&D.

I am not trying to suggest that the OEM Brembo tires are the best choice for every Brembo car owner when the time comes to replace the orignals. But for getting the best performance from a Brembo car they most likely will give the best absolute over-all performance around a track.....for a very short ammount of time.

Please, please, please stop spreading around incorrect information. Going from thread to thread attempting to correct people is growing tiresome.

From the other thread on basically the same topic:

OEM spec tires are usually not the same as a generic retail tire, even if they are the same size and model. If you look, there are different P/N's despite them being the same size and model. And they can have very different characteristics and prices as a result. Glock22357 is correct.

 

[12blackgt]

Both of you are completely incorrect. I am sick and tired of having to correct people on this topic, so I'm going to copy and paste my post from another current thread on basically the same topic.



Please, please, please stop spreading around incorrect information. Going from thread to thread attempting to correct people is growing tiresome.

From the other thread on basically the same topic:

Sorry, but that's just not true!!! It's the same crap as "break in oil". The factory oil fill is the same as OTS! Even if it were true with "factory tires" as a civilian you wouldn't be able to buy them for replacement tires simply because you aren't a factory and can't buy in their bulk. Do you reallly think if special "factory tires" were real it would be lost on Car and Driver and Tire Rack. All their data would be skewed with an asterisk at the bottom of the page that said: * data only applies to OTS tires. Factory tires yield different results. Pure and utter nonsense!

 

[HonkeyKong]

Sounds like glock is off his meds again