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trickie67

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
What do you think of this product? It will be used on my 2008 GT Mustang and what else would I need if I order those coil overs. Is it waste of money or what? The reason I am going with this is because most lowering springs avg 1.0-1.5 and I need something around 2.0.
The part number is 35101.711 by Eibach. I know I will need the panhard for the rearend and possibly the adjustable caster camber plates or adjustable upper or lower arms.

Thanks for any feedback.


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What do you think of this product? It will be used on my 2008 GT Mustang and what else would I need if I order those coil overs. Is it waste of money or what? The reason I am going with this is because most lowering springs avg 1.0-1.5 and I need something around 2.0.
The part number is 35101.711 by Eibach. I know I will need the panhard for the rearend and possibly the adjustable caster camber plates or adjustable upper or lower arms.

Thanks for any feedback.

Hi tricky67,

You can't really lower an S197 2" without extreme compromise in handling, geometry and ride quality even if you install all the geometry correction parts. If you are after having more full looking wheel wells look into slightly taller tires. At least don't buy tires that are any smaller than the stock 27" tall 235/55x17 tires. Unless you buy undersized wheels and tires 2" is just too much without cutting the rear frame rails not to mention wheel and tire interference with the inside of your wheel wells. This is the reason that most of the spring sets lower ride height no more than 1.5" or so. There is nothing preventing you from lowering the car this much or maybe even more as long as you realize the limitations of your actions and the fact that your car will have dangerous handling when driven hard. If you really want to lower your car as far as you can go you will need to increase your spring rates well up into the 400-500lb. range to reduce or minimize the bottoming that will be happening. When the car bottoms out the car will have no suspensionand your handling will instantly go into extreme oversteer leading to a likely spin-out if you are driving in a corner. Start with a reasonable reduction in ride height say about 1.5" in front and 1.5" at the rear. You will probably find that by 1.7" at the rear your car is riding on the bumpstops and starting to handle poorly.

HTH!
 
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Discussion starter · #4 ·
I am not trying to slam the car down. I just want to lower enough to where there is about half inch gap between the tire and the fender well.
I notice with the 1.5 lowering springs there is still about maybe an inch or more of gap. This is the mods I plan to do at a time hopefully to have it all done in a year. I already got the roush spoiler installed and for fitments then paint it this weekend. Since I own a body shop so it is not a problem. Possibly getting the front roush fasica kit. Lowering the car with upgrade of sway bars just like the roush package.
Got the carbon fiber interior trim ordered. The hood I haven't decided what I am gonna do. I know I want the GT500 hood but don't want to change the whole front end so still searching for the same style as the GT 500 hood. Can I make the hood work and just modify something? Possibly tires and wheels either a 18 or a 19 what ya think?. The last thing that will go on the car will be supercharger.
Thanks for answering. Appreciate it.
 
I am not trying to slam the car down. I just want to lower enough to where there is about half inch gap between the tire and the fender well.
I notice with the 1.5 lowering springs there is still about maybe an inch or more of gap. This is the mods I plan to do at a time hopefully to have it all done in a year. I already got the roush spoiler installed and for fitments then paint it this weekend. Since I own a body shop so it is not a problem. Possibly getting the front roush fasica kit. Lowering the car with upgrade of sway bars just like the roush package.
Got the carbon fiber interior trim ordered. The hood I haven't decided what I am gonna do. I know I want the GT500 hood but don't want to change the whole front end so still searching for the same style as the GT 500 hood. Can I make the hood work and just modify something? Possibly tires and wheels either a 18 or a 19 what ya think?. The last thing that will go on the car will be supercharger.
Thanks for answering. Appreciate it.
Hi trickie67,

Do you have an alignment rack or lift for frame jigging? If so you can roll the car up on the jack and take a look at the clearance between the rear frame rails and the axle. At the rear you will not that there is not a lot of room to lower the car without mechanical interference with the rails. Owning a body shop if you went nuts you could notch the rails and weld a heavy steel plate to close the notch you had to cut for axle clearance. This is the main problem area on the car. The front can be lowered much more than the rear. But lowering too much in front causes suspension geometry issues that ruin the S197GT's basically good handling unless you spend the money to correct the goemetry issues created by over lowering the chassis.

You may need to buy a coilover suspension to achive that just right stance. This is what I had to do to get to the just right spring rate, still comfortable ride, good ride height and adjustable damping I need. If you have read many of my posts you know that I have spent a lot of time playing with suspension to get the handling right but what I ended up with is a car that has a very high grip level, good ride and empty wheel wells. The only solution was to by taller tires and stiffer springs on a coilover suspension so I could get the right ride height.

I bought a Steeda Adjustable Suspension because IMO it is the best designed and engineered system and I had many of the parts already that their coilover kit uses. Gus was willing to price out the missing items for me so I saved some pretty good money and ended up with a great suspension. There are other coilover kits out there but there are no other coilovers that have a custom D-Spec stut, Steeda's isolated, smooth riding HD roller bearing strut mounts with OE style dimension strut ears so I could use the Steeda billet camber plates on them. This was critical for my application as I wanted to go as low as practically possible and still have proper alignment and good suspension geometry.

Obviously my focus is on handling performance and O.K. ride for daily driver use. Your focus may be more oriented towards appearance rather than serious handling and starting with a stock suspension some of the other coilover kits may work for your use just fine. KW, H&R, Eibach and Progress Technology all make coilover kits for the S197 chassis and each has their own little quirks and problems so check them out carefully and ask a lot of question of the manufactures before you buy.

For a car that needs to retain good daily driver handling I really think you need to consider buying an 18" or 19" wheel and using a 27.5"+ tall tire. This gives the wheel well that filled up look without compromising suspension geometry, wheel well or ground clearance all of which you need for a real car that gets driven on the street. The car will look lower with the wheels tucked up closer to the tops of the wheel wells but will still handle and ride well. You also have to carefully consider the wheels you will be using. The 10"-11" width at the rear is not an issue with proper offset and an adjustable Panhard bar to get the axle centered under the car to avoid rubbing. But in front a 10" wheel is maybe slightly beyond the limits given the strut is just missing 1/4" the tires on my forged Roush 18x10 wheels with 274/40x18 BFG T/A KD tires and the tires rub the wheelwell liners at full lock. The front wheels IMO cannot be any wider than 9.5" wide if you want to have the wheel and tire actually tuck inside the wheel arch which is what you will need to lower the car in front even with a lot of negative camber helping you out.

If you are really going to install a blower you need to consider your hood options very carefully or you may be buying a new hood later. Saleen's aluminum hood is an OEM quality part and has fully functional exhaust vents unlike the vast majority of the hoods on the market. Effective for reducing under hood temps and high pressure that tends to blow off the hoods on these cars at speed.

HTH!
 
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Welcome to the forums !

If you want extreme lowering then get MMR coil-overs with their shocks ... up to 3.5" lowering.

But as you have been told, that will cause a headache for the geometry, but you;ll find it out by yourself.

:hihi:
 
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Discussion starter · #7 ·
Well just wanted to say thanks to SportsPix for taking his time to explain then went searching forums and found that he took the time to explain too for the others about the suspension so I guess I will be doing more researching before I decide which way I am going.
But here is a before picture of the factory spoiler and the after picture with the Roush spoiler.






 
Looks great... Well done!!
 
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Sportpix, i know your big into the suspension stuff. but im going to disagree with you. My car- 2007 Mustang GT Premium w 17" wheels. Still have the stock 235/55/17 pirellis. My suspension consists of the Eibach Sportline Kit, and BMR LCA's. Stock shocks and struts...

I have had this suspension on the car for 8000 miles. With a live axle rear end, no matter how fast or slow you go into a corner and hit a bump, the rear end is going to want to shift. Stock height or not. Although my car is much lower than stock (2") I have only bottomed out TWICE. And that was do to my own neglect. I was not watching my speed when driving into a big dip in the road. And I hit an un-avoidable pot hole. I do not feel that my car is dangerous in hard cornering situations. I feel that my car handles on rails. I am very happy with the outcome of my suspension. The only time ive felt at risk, was due to entering corners much too fast. Again, also my own fault. Although the car is close to the bump stops, the spring rate is raised to compensate. And i have never once had a problem with the front tires rubbing the fenders or splash shields. I wanted my car to be slammed, and it is. Its clean, level and it handles well. Im going to put some D-specs or AGX's in this summer to stiffen it up a bit and then do some sway bars and that will be all for me.
 
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Sportspix, what spring rate did you pair with your Steeda coilovers? I have bought just about everything except the shocks and springs. I just haven't decided between coilovers or D-Specs and springs.
 
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Sportpix, i know your big into the suspension stuff. but im going to disagree with you. My car- 2007 Mustang GT Premium w 17" wheels. Still have the stock 235/55/17 pirellis. My suspension consists of the Eibach Sportline Kit, and BMR LCA's. Stock shocks and struts...

I have had this suspension on the car for 8000 miles. With a live axle rear end, no matter how fast or slow you go into a corner and hit a bump, the rear end is going to want to shift. Stock height or not. Although my car is much lower than stock (2") I have only bottomed out TWICE. And that was do to my own neglect. I was not watching my speed when driving into a big dip in the road. And I hit an un-avoidable pot hole. I do not feel that my car is dangerous in hard cornering situations. I feel that my car handles on rails. I am very happy with the outcome of my suspension. The only time ive felt at risk, was due to entering corners much too fast. Again, also my own fault. Although the car is close to the bump stops, the spring rate is raised to compensate. And i have never once had a problem with the front tires rubbing the fenders or splash shields. I wanted my car to be slammed, and it is. Its clean, level and it handles well. Im going to put some D-specs or AGX's in this summer to stiffen it up a bit and then do some sway bars and that will be all for me.

Hi 88_stanga,

All live axle cars will exibit some grip issues when encountering rough pavement. Some are better than others and the speed at which the bounce, slip, grip happens depends on the wheel and tire weight, other unsprung mass, size, type, quality of the tires used, spring rates, damper rates, ride height etc.

All live-axle chassis rear ends using a Panhard bar for lateral location must by definition experience some lateral axle movement defined by the arc described by the length of the Panhard bar. The amount of lateral movement is dependant on the total suspension travel from full compression to full droop, and the more travel you have the more lateral movement there wll be. Additionally the more total suspension travel the more unbalanced this movement will be using the stock mounting points. This is unavoidable in a Panhard rear axle car but this lateral movement is not the cause of the usual grip, slip, grip handling of a live axle car when experiencing rough pavement. This is caused by the solid rear axle's lack of independence side to side and is the only practical advantage an IRS rear suspension has over a live axle aside from the differences in unspring mass which of course affects other issues.

Any Mustang on stock dampers with any spring you choose will make the chassis bounce (at certain speeds depending on the spring rate and sprung and unspriung mass) up causing a momentary loss of traction because the damping rate is so high in compression damping that it prevents the springs from absorbing the impact. This makes the chassis feel and behave skittish both front and rear when traversing rough or bumpy pavement. This is just a fact of life on stock S197GT dampers and is the same problem that folks who have installed FRPP's suspension will tell you. ALL of the people who have dumped the stock or FRPP Multi-Matic struts and dampers and installed D-Spec, Koni Sports or Bilstein HD struts and dampers have experienced the same massive improvement in ride quality and handling. This same experience holds true across the board with any S197 Mustang GT stock, Sport or Comp spring set regardless of wheel or tires.

Your car is bottoming out all the time if you are driving on the streets regardless of if you know or acknowledge it. You can do some simple clay clearance testing and confirm this or you can simply disassemble your struts and rear dampers and have a look at the surfaces the bumpstops are rubbing on. I can assure you that they show signs of bottoming out. Additionally if you have to slam on your brakes and avoid dips in the road your suspension ride height is simply too low not matter what you believe.

Consider this, if your stock car had 6" of total suspension travel and normally sat with a static ride height that used only 2" of the 6" suspension travel the car will have 4" of bump travel available. You then take away an additional 2" of additional travel with lowering springs and the car now has only 2" of bump travel possible before bottoming and going solid on the framerails. In order to insure that you can avoid bottoming out under most conditions your spring rate would have to be doubled to assure that you can prevent bottoming out. This only applies to a linear rate spring as it is virtually impossible to design and build a progressive rate spring that is well matched to the particular car and ride height. The problem is that as suspension travel gets smaller the spring rate heel of the curve has to shift very precisely or the rate or ride height will be way off. This is not to mention the impossible task that the dampers need to perform with a progressive spring design. This is why the working spring rates on virtually all race cars is linear, you can't effectively dampen the springs due to the rates bouncing all over the place.

If your car really is as good dynamically as you believe then you could not likely enter corners too fast. As far as I can tell you have never been on a road course and don't really know how slow your car is in it's current condition. Go out and attend an HPDE and let a qualified instructor drive your car as it is and he will tell you your car as it sits has problems and that is is bottoming out when driven at all hard and that you need dampers.

Your car's small tires cannot possibly rub because they are only on 8" rims and the tire section widths are over 2" narrower than the tires we are talking about.

HTH!
 
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When I purchased my Eibach Sportlines Springs, they came with new, smaller bumpstops. I have installed them. When my car was STOCK, I still braked, and avoided pot holes. I dont give a flying F*** if and HPDE driver thinks my car has handling issues. My car, on the stock stuts handles exactly how I thought it was going to. Slightly bouncy, with a pretty high rebound. I have spent plenty of time on the Auto-X course. Enough to satisfy my weekend fun. My car DOES NOT bottom out. The stops my graze the rails once in awhile. But they dont slam. I put 4 tires on an 03 Silverado 1500 today and when I pulled the truck in, the lower control arms were touching the bumpstops. I dont need a 3 page lecture on suspension. I did what I did to my car to have it look good. And I feel that it handles better than stock. Mostly due to its lower center of gravity. Everyone appreciates your input on suspension. But sometimes I feel like you try and talk someone out of doing something because of how it will handle on the road course, when all they want to do is drive it on the weekends and maybe rip it up through some corners.
 
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When I purchased my Eibach Sportlines Springs, they came with new, smaller bumpstops. I have installed them. When my car was STOCK, I still braked, and avoided pot holes. I dont give a flying F*** if and HPDE driver thinks my car has handling issues. My car, on the stock stuts handles exactly how I thought it was going to. Slightly bouncy, with a pretty high rebound. I have spent plenty of time on the Auto-X course. Enough to satisfy my weekend fun. My car DOES NOT bottom out. The stops my graze the rails once in awhile. But they dont slam. I put 4 tires on an 03 Silverado 1500 today and when I pulled the truck in, the lower control arms were touching the bumpstops. I dont need a 3 page lecture on suspension. I did what I did to my car to have it look good. And I feel that it handles better than stock. Mostly due to its lower center of gravity. Everyone appreciates your input on suspension. But sometimes I feel like you try and talk someone out of doing something because of how it will handle on the road course, when all they want to do is drive it on the weekends and maybe rip it up through some corners.
Hi 88_stanga,

The shorter than stock Sportline bumpstops on the axle only change the gap space between the bumpstop and framerails which is then significantly reduced by the 2" lower ride height of the Sportline springs. I've installed and tested Sportlines on an S197GT and IMO there is simply not enough wheel travel left at the rear to drive the car on the street at normal speeds without bottoming regularly. I have measured the axle clearence by doing clay testing so I know these springs let the car bottom out all the time no matter how slow you drive. Of course if you didn,t install an adjustable UCA to adjust your pinion angle correctly your bump stops may be pointed more toward the top of the frame rail arch instead of slightly forward where they would hit if adjusted correctly but the rear axle would still bottom pretty regularly even at moderate speeds.

I think you may be misinterpreting what you are feeling with your (now) extremely under dampened rebound of the stock struts and rear dampers. If you get around to replacing your stock dampers with adjustable D-Specs or Koni Sports you will see a huge improvement in handling and ride but the car will be bottoming out even more regularly due to the much improved compression and rebound damping rates. The improved relationship between compression and bump damping rates allow the suspension to work instead of being over damped in compression and underdamped in rebound which is the problem with the stock and FRPP MM dampers. The Sportline springs only exacerbate this damping imbalance problem.

I only post what years of suspension experience has shown me to be best answer for the poster's question. I think that most posters want to keep their cars in reasonably comfortable streetable form and I assume this to be the case unless they post otherwise. I try to consider the OP's location, roads etc and try to answer with a reasonble setup for the original poster's stated objective. I most certainly do not try to setup every car for the race track. If that were the case I would simply send people to Griggs Racing and tell people to order and spend appropriately for the series they want to compete in.

My personal S197GT is a street car, it's my daily driver but it is a street car with a high level of handling and cornering performance. It is not a car with parts selected for looks. No stickers, no stipes, no fake scoops, no wings, no billet bling nothing. Everything has been carefully selected and installed in my search for better handling, grip and power on a daily driven street car.

While this car goes to the track once in a while the real focus of my suspension modifications is to handle and ride well on Mulholland. Mulholland and the related canyon roads offer a very wide range of corner, straight speeds and road surfaces but tends to have some bumpy sections in the smaller canyons along with some very smooth sections on the main road and faster sections. If a car works well on Mulholland it will work well anywhere in the world on a paved road.

If you brought a car to Mulholland with Sportline springs, stock struts and dampers it would either bounce off the road or spin at any sort of even modest pace on Mulholland. Mulholland is not very forgiving and is notorious for eating cars, I've seen plenty of cars go off the cliffs and into a cayon that were not setup well and driven beyond the limit. All I'm saying is to use caution with Sportlines and stock dampers as their limits are very low on bumpy roads. In a parking lot maybe they are O.K. but out in the real world they are a very poor choice for a performance spring.

Running Mulholland and the surrounding caynons IS what I do when I want to "drive it on the weekends" and "rip it up through some corners" but I do the corner ripping part for hours and hours at a time.

HTH!
 
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My car is setup with my budget. I wanted a low ass car with some better handling than stock. And thats what i got. This summer, i will put in new struts and shocks, and ill keep you posted on how the car handles. i dont doubt your suspension knowledge at all. by reading a few of your lengthy posts, it seems you know your ****. i went to school to setup chassis for dirt track, drag racing, and dragging frame down the highway. although i have forgotten a few things. i still remember the basics.
 
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